A dilemma about old people.

Today again, I gave a call to my grandpa. He's more than 70 years old and ill. He's suffering hell, his body is on the verge of collapsing and so is his mind. My parents, uncles and aunts are obviously trying their best to keep him, if not sane, alive. We all know his conditions are only going to worsen... until he's dead. Everyday, I quietly listen to my dying grandfather as he's asking to be left in peace (meaning to let him die in his house, alone or not, but anyway, in peace). Everyday, fearing being called cruel, or an egoist or such by... well, everybody, I keep what I think to me.

And I think : Why not let him die ? Why deprive him of everything he worked hard to get(money, his awesome work, all his possessions and his damn freedom), put him in a small house he hates, always monitor him and talk to him like he doesn't know his right from his left ? I mean, of course he will fall ill with his body in such a state. We're not healing him at all, we're just slowing down his death, making him suffer less but longer.

I understand, as medicine has evolved, we feel we can't 'morally' let him just die when we actually can keep him alive a bit longer. But isn't it like torture ? Is torture 'morally' better ?

Shit, I'm trembling as I'm writing this. I just don't know anymore, what do you guys think ?

I do agree with you. A person should be able to decide he wants to die, instead of having to endure all the indignities and all the illnesses that just wont go away no matter how much doctors try. Doing otherwise is just incredibly selfish, because then we are not keeping someone alive for their sake, but for ours alone.

From your post, I can't make out if you are suggesting euthanasia or not. It isn't clear.
In any case here is the topic: Euthanasia/Medical death

Onto subject, well, I can say I will, in the coming years experience the same story as you. My own grandfather has a defective hip, barely walks around anymore, and suffers from long and short term amnesia.

We still have him for now, but we all know its only a matter of luck until he starts to sink. And its...difficult.To imagine.

The experience of seeing someone close to you die a slow, painful even if natural death is...somewhat unbearable.

But in my opinion, it is... something that must be lived. We live in a world where many, many pains are taken away from us, removed by society. New ones arise.

It is not...cruel. It is...compassion. Staying next to him. Till the last day. Its a sort of journey to death, a walk in the gardens on the beaches of the Styx.

Well that is how I imagine it. I'd say we must...suffer, too understand, to grow. Killing someone before death comes to him is sometimes mercy. But as long as he is speaking, reacting, I'd say we hold on to them. Not help them survive, in any medical way, but be there, close to them.

But if they become vegetables, than yes. I wouldn't want any member of my family to become "life assisted" by a machine.

Thats what I'd say.

So what you are saying is that its okay to be selfish and to just keep them alive for our own sake, no matter how much they rail and suffer and wish it would all just stop? Even if they don't care one whit for your philosophical ramblings about pains taken away and what-not? In the end, you are just making them suffer more, only to make it easier for yourself.

I know this may sound heartless, but when it is evident enough that an old person can barely talk and move with a horrible sickness, they can't live life anymore and I think it is enough to say that they should be allowed to die if they wish. Same goes for people who are too far into their cancer or other horrible diseases, make it simple so the pain stops, if and when they want to.

I didn't see that topic because I only searched for old people cases and didn't particularly think about euthanasia while writing this.

Either way, I'm not suggesting euthanasia, I think this kind of things shouldn't be decided by anybody other than yourself. Since he himself is not asking for it, I won't even bring it up, but should he, I would support his choice as I can't bear refusing him an 'easy' door out.

As long as he wishes it, I would gladly be by his side, and support him as he accepts death. If we can be so selfish as to keep him alive when he clearly can't have what he himself considers life, I understand his own selfishness in wanting to quietly leave while he remains sane.

In that, I agree with the fact that all we have to do is be close to him to the end. That's why I don't understand my parents. They selfishly keep him alive while they perfectly know that they can't even be by his side all the way through.

While saying all that, if he ever chose euthanasia, I wouldn't be able to "press the button". Even though I'd feel awful for letting some unknown doctor end his life.

There is a lot of stigma attached to suicide in western culture that i believe causes many people to suffer. i am a firm believer in the right to die. it's usually other people forcing someone to stay alive, with little to no consideration for their pain.

on the general subject of suicide, i hear "it's selfish", or "it's cowardly", even in cases of terminal and painful conditions. i say it's just the opposite. making someone stay alive and suffer horrible and prolonged pain just so you can put off your own inevedible realitively minor suffering of the loss of a loved one is the truely cowardly selfish act.


Something you should check out: FRONTLINE The Suicide Tourist. it's about a man who has to travel to switzerland for assisted suicide.

Bit scared of old people that would suicide because they felt like they were just being a bother to their family, if you'd allow it.

Gramps spend like 2 years "dying", doctors told us maybe a month or so but he didn't really want to die so he kept himself alive somehow. But I'm pretty sure he would've felt forced to die if he had that as an easy, fast and painfree option.

A person should decide what to do with their life and with their body, something like religion and morals are just imposing the way someone else thinks in your life.

What you're feeling is genuine compassion. You shouldn't feel guilty for not wanting someone you love to suffer.

Medicine prolongs life, and in some cases can make it better... But in these situations, they just prolong suffering. It's a truly terrifying thing to not be sure of what's real anymore.

I think you should talk about this with your family. I know that to a lot of people, it can be misconstrued as 'heartless' but in reality, it's the most humane and selfless thing you can do, is to ask the question 'Is he better like this?', and if the answer is no, it's time to do something about it.

I don't mean 'euthanize' him, but.. find out what he wants.

Hmm. I guess that and the other comments convinces me. It will be hard (I have one damn stubborn family, and concerning that particular topic, it's even worse), but I need to have one deep talk with them it seems.

I'm not sure how I will bring it out (I can't seriously just go and say "hey daddy-mommy, how about letting gramps die now ?"). I guess I'll have to prepare my words carefully. I'm pretty sure my dad (he's the one descending from the grandpa I'm talking about) won't change stances, but the least I can do is discuss it with them... It's gonna be weird and awkward as hell.

Thanks for the understanding answers, everyone.

I'd suggest not discussing it with them. Nothing good is going to come out of it besides hurt feelings between your parents and yourself. It's a stressful situation and that is definitely a topic you don't want anyone to discuss with you. Put yourself in your parent's place and think about how you'd handle someone confronting you about it.

Death is an unpleasant subject for 99% of the population and they never confront the issue of mortality until it's past time.

It would certainly be unpleasant. I can't put myself in their place, not perfectly at least, so I don't know if just letting it go is the right thing to do. I mean, yea, it will hurt our relations in a way, I clearly see that, but it already hurts me to let them do as they please with his life. The way I see it, either I'm the one bringing up the fucked up subject nobody wants to talk about, or I'm a coward and an egoist for letting my grandfather whom I love and who demonstrated his love for us many times suffer a long, long, long and painful death. What I fear the most is the day my grandpa's sanity will be gone and he won't even have the life force to say what he wants done with his own life.

I know that, one day, I will have to face the same situation as my parents' but that doesn't mean I can just leave it to them this time and just enjoy the life they gave me, the life HE gave them, while HE can't feel anything but pain and boredom.

Maybe I think too much. Maybe not. Either way, I'm kind of an egoist who only wants his consciousness relieved. I've just got to decide which kind of egoist I want to be.

Edit : Actually I've just lost my motivation after spending the night pondering it. In fact I really don't see how talking about it would help.

I didn't say that we should keep them alive, I said that we shouldn't help them die.

I understand what you mean, that we should stop their sufferings by any means possible, and frankly, if they ask for death, then yes, I would step down. But I wouldn't push in and suggest it. That would be a complete disgrace towards them, and towards their lives.

If they cannot ask for their death, and that they no longer live their lives, as described in my post as the "vegetable state",or if they are in pain and can no longer reason, then yes, I would practice euthanasia onto them.

In the case you present, you state the situation in which they are in extreme pain, but do not wish or cannot express their wish to die. Refer to both cases above:
(1)either they do not wish to die yet, and thus I step down to their decision.

(2)Or they cannot express any positive or negative position towards death and are in a great deal of pain, in which case I will, with the approval of my family, vote for euthanasia, except in the case that they have left specific intructions before hand defending us to do so, refer to (1).

I hope I've clarified my thoughts.