Equivalent Exchange
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"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange."
So tell me guys do you believe this to be true?
To obtain something we want most be must first give something in return that is equal value to it.
Personally can see it as true.
If we really want something we first have to give up something in order to obtain what we most desire.
Kinda like you cant learn something if you dont study (you loose time)
you cant earn money if you dont work hard (you loose age)
you cant have friends if you dont have understanding (you loose yourself)
we need to sacrifice things for the things we wanted to have, for the dreams we wanted to fulfill..in life we cant have both.
Say like the part of the "Walking Dead", SPOILER: Just like a tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye.
Alchemy
And while we are on the topic of Equivalent Exchange, if we could break Alchemy down to the nitty gritty do you think it could be possible to do it?
Im not trying to get off topic im just trying to understand.
We can do some much and built amazing things, so could this be possible?
I know its just a show, but it focuses around science and that was one subject i was best at in school so this has got my all fascinated and soo curious.
Oh! And one last thing, in Full Metal, Edward Elric has an auto mail arm that is just like the real thing, and the way he can use it is his nerves are connected to each and every possible piece given him complete use of the metal arm.
Now do you think we could perfect something like that?
You guys decide.
So tell me guys do you believe this to be true?
To obtain something we want most be must first give something in return that is equal value to it.
Personally can see it as true.
If we really want something we first have to give up something in order to obtain what we most desire.
Kinda like you cant learn something if you dont study (you loose time)
you cant earn money if you dont work hard (you loose age)
you cant have friends if you dont have understanding (you loose yourself)
we need to sacrifice things for the things we wanted to have, for the dreams we wanted to fulfill..in life we cant have both.
Say like the part of the "Walking Dead", SPOILER:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Alchemy
And while we are on the topic of Equivalent Exchange, if we could break Alchemy down to the nitty gritty do you think it could be possible to do it?
Im not trying to get off topic im just trying to understand.
We can do some much and built amazing things, so could this be possible?
I know its just a show, but it focuses around science and that was one subject i was best at in school so this has got my all fascinated and soo curious.
Oh! And one last thing, in Full Metal, Edward Elric has an auto mail arm that is just like the real thing, and the way he can use it is his nerves are connected to each and every possible piece given him complete use of the metal arm.
Now do you think we could perfect something like that?
You guys decide.
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Cruz
Dope Stone Lion
I think if there is a possible way of turning something like iron into gold, the method would be really expensive and more trouble than the gold is worth.
Also equivalent exchange sounds too...idealistic for me to take seriously.
Also equivalent exchange sounds too...idealistic for me to take seriously.
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Well first off medical science is already able to replace human limbs with robotics. It's still in the early ages though, few of the wealthy have it and even fewer of the middle class would even consider having one ($$$), they are still improving it,(better response, lighter weight, etc etc) though I doubt it would be anytime soon until we get people like Will Smith in iRobot to start having one.
As for the topic at hand; "Value" is something completely subjective and more or less different from person to person. Even your example of some people might view it as a better exchange (Life of the young > Life of the Aged). So in a sense; it is very hard to accept this idea. But for my case, even if you didn't mention it was based FMA, I would agree to it.
But only to an extent.
Btw, please put a spoiler for that example. I would have been so pissed if I wasn't up to date with the episodes. Some asshole already spoiled me of how this season was going to end, breaks my heart really.
As for the topic at hand; "Value" is something completely subjective and more or less different from person to person. Even your example of
Spoiler:
But only to an extent.
Btw, please put a spoiler for that
Spoiler:
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As kengenerals said, prosthetics are already fairly advanced, I know there has been some work done with hands that hook up to the brain and have a fairly wide range of movement; but as far as being able to replace limbs with prosthetics that work just as well, I think we're a bit far off. As I understand it, a lot of the difficulty is in connecting something up directly to the nerves so that it works just like a real hand.
If you see equivalent exchange as another way of stating the law of conservation of energy, then it would be true in that way. It could also be seen as a simplified expression of Newton's third law, otherwise simplified as, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
But in a philosophical sense, I think that people would like to believe in equivalent exchange because humans like patterns and balances, and it is not so much an inherent universal truth.
If you see equivalent exchange as another way of stating the law of conservation of energy, then it would be true in that way. It could also be seen as a simplified expression of Newton's third law, otherwise simplified as, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
But in a philosophical sense, I think that people would like to believe in equivalent exchange because humans like patterns and balances, and it is not so much an inherent universal truth.
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cruz737 wrote...
I think if there is a possible way of turning something like iron into gold, the method would be really expensive and more trouble than the gold is worth.Scientists can theoretically manufacture gold atoms in a lab by screwing with the nucleus and stuff, but it'd be prohibitively expensive and would require a lot of research to develop the proper technology. It'd probably be cheaper to pay a dude to go to dumps, retrieve gold from electronics, then extract the gold and melt it down.
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There definetly has to be equal exchange. Just like science says "matter can not be created nor destroyed" we can't just get things without giving up our things (either a physical thing or other like time) to get something else. If you want omlette you gotta give up a few eggs!
Also i wonder if you have to be awake when you get your nerves connected to the mechanical arm to make sure it actually is working properly, don't know how many people would want to put up with that amount of pain.
Those bastards!!
Also i wonder if you have to be awake when you get your nerves connected to the mechanical arm to make sure it actually is working properly, don't know how many people would want to put up with that amount of pain.
kengenerals wrote...
Some asshole already spoiled me of how this season was going to end, breaks my heart really.Those bastards!!
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kengenerals wrote...
Well first off medical science is already able to replace human limbs with robotics. It's still in the early ages though, few of the wealthy have it and even fewer of the middle class would even consider having one ($$$), they are still improving it,(better response, lighter weight, etc etc) though I doubt it would be anytime soon until we get people like Will Smith in iRobot to start having one.As for the topic at hand; "Value" is something completely subjective and more or less different from person to person. Even your example of
Spoiler:
But only to an extent.
Btw, please put a spoiler for that
Spoiler:
Ah sorry about that.
And yeah your right.
Fixed.
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If value is considered in monetary terms the statement "Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost." is not true since there are things such as gains from trade (simplified version we can make food cheaper than we can make oil so by trading for oil with food we can get more food and oil than if we made them ourselves).
In terms of alchemy if you are talking about actual science it is possible to make elements like gold as someone said "if you have a nuclear accelerator you can work with thorium and subtract protons until you have an atom of gold, but it is much cheaper to buy gold on the world market at $825.80US / troy ounce."
In terms of alchemy if you are talking about actual science it is possible to make elements like gold as someone said "if you have a nuclear accelerator you can work with thorium and subtract protons until you have an atom of gold, but it is much cheaper to buy gold on the world market at $825.80US / troy ounce."
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TheRedHat wrote...
If value is considered in monetary terms the statement "Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost." is not true since there are things such as gains from trade (simplified version we can make food cheaper than we can make oil so by trading for oil with food we can get more food and oil than if we made them ourselves).In terms of alchemy if you are talking about actual science it is possible to make elements like gold as someone said "if you have a nuclear accelerator you can work with thorium and subtract protons until you have an atom of gold, but it is much cheaper to buy gold on the world market at $825.80US / troy ounce."
What is more valuable than a part of your body? If you lose an arm or a leg, imagine the dividends that will be paid by replacing it. I don't mean to offend people who have lost any body parts, the majority of those people have sacrificed a part of their body for the sake of something greater than themselves. Is it wrong to give those people a prosthetic, so they can reenter society, able to make some kind of contribution?
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The Jesus wrote...
What is more valuable than a part of your body? If you lose an arm or a leg, imagine the dividends that will be paid by replacing it. I don't mean to offend people who have lost any body parts, the majority of those people have sacrificed a part of their body for the sake of something greater than themselves. Is it wrong to give those people a prosthetic, so they can reenter society, able to make some kind of contribution?Are you replying to what I wrote? Because what I said had nothing to do with what you wrote as I did not say anything about prosthetics. I was addressing the fact that the quote was “To obtain, something of equal value must be lost” and showing that if we use something like money as a value system (since otherwise it’s difficult to measure) we can in fact gain more than we are giving.
But to answer your question the ability for those individuals to be able to participate in something greater than themselves is more valuable to them than the risk of losing a limb. It is not wrong to give these people a prosthetic (they were made for that very purpose) and it is in fact beneficial for society to provide these prosthetics because it will allow the individual the opportunity to further contribute to society in a more effective manner.
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I believe it is true.
For example, in most cases in order to obtain luxury cars, expensive houses, jewelries, etc. you will have to work hard. Working hard requires energy, time, and effort. If you spend energy, time and effort in your work then you won't be able to spend it on playing or having fun with family and friends or on other things. The vice versa also holds true. They actually tell you these in business classes in university.
Another example, take GSP (George St. Pierre) of the MMA. He currently holds the Welterweight Champion and is one of the most popular and skilled fighter ever in UFC. But in order to get to the position he's at, he had to train, fight and get beaten numerous times.
So there you go, your Equivalent Exchange in real life.
For example, in most cases in order to obtain luxury cars, expensive houses, jewelries, etc. you will have to work hard. Working hard requires energy, time, and effort. If you spend energy, time and effort in your work then you won't be able to spend it on playing or having fun with family and friends or on other things. The vice versa also holds true. They actually tell you these in business classes in university.
Another example, take GSP (George St. Pierre) of the MMA. He currently holds the Welterweight Champion and is one of the most popular and skilled fighter ever in UFC. But in order to get to the position he's at, he had to train, fight and get beaten numerous times.
So there you go, your Equivalent Exchange in real life.
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I do not believe in equivalent exchange. Its a lovely concept when dealing with alchemy but does not apply for all things. Some say, risk is reward, but that is not always the case, some say, what you put in is what you get out, but that isn't always the case.
Its not a bad idea, its just full of holes. Some people get lucky, others take advantage, and some make tons off the fact that things do not exchange equally.
Coinstar is a fine example that profit is made from exchange. Do you really think it costs the bank 3 bucks to give you that twenty bucks from the machine you are using? Do you really think that the credit card companies are fairly charging 3% off of every sale that is made through them? Imagine the billions spent and for just the electronic exchange of money, they get 3%.
Its not a bad idea, its just full of holes. Some people get lucky, others take advantage, and some make tons off the fact that things do not exchange equally.
Coinstar is a fine example that profit is made from exchange. Do you really think it costs the bank 3 bucks to give you that twenty bucks from the machine you are using? Do you really think that the credit card companies are fairly charging 3% off of every sale that is made through them? Imagine the billions spent and for just the electronic exchange of money, they get 3%.
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See thermodynamics, Newtonian physics, chemistry, economics, and sociology. All converge on a decisive answer, yes.
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Equivalent Exchange reminds me of a seen from Inherit the Wind.
Start at the second minute.
In any case, equivalent exchange seems to apply to some things, but it's not a universal thing. It would be neat if alchemy were true, it would be cool if laws conceived in the minds of anime producers were reality, but I don't believe they are, mainly because when you view the whole of human knowledge, most of it is gotten not with any sort of natural repercussion, more the payment is the blow back of those who aren't ready for the knowledge we gain. And that's not equivalent exchange, that's just people being stubborn.
Start at the second minute.
In any case, equivalent exchange seems to apply to some things, but it's not a universal thing. It would be neat if alchemy were true, it would be cool if laws conceived in the minds of anime producers were reality, but I don't believe they are, mainly because when you view the whole of human knowledge, most of it is gotten not with any sort of natural repercussion, more the payment is the blow back of those who aren't ready for the knowledge we gain. And that's not equivalent exchange, that's just people being stubborn.
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idk how far or deep you guys are into this subject, but I study alchemy. This art is about hacking your subconscious and the unconscious mind of the universe with symbolism and reaching altered states of elevated consciousness to promote change in the reality of the dreamer- dreaming. When one can take control of his mind in all totality you can turn lead into gold with a thought. The expression of turning lead into gold is a watered down statement. every alchemist knows that statement refers to the self being lead and under metamorphosis of mind does consciousness become gold and can perform far beyond the normal 5% of the mundane's brain power.
Alchemy can be traced back to the dawn of humanity with shamanism being the foundation of alchemy. After a while alchemy made extraordinary progression in the science and became renown as chemistry. The different methods of manipulation towards the molecular bonds and structure of an atom can be applied to your consciousness to bring about a change in your psyche. knowing astrology is also a key point in alchemy because each body out in the universe resonates at its own frequency which in terms effects your cells (depending in the positioning with other solar bodies). your cells and the foundation of your physical body are highly succeptable to this energy.
I can go all the way into the quantum physics and even philosophy of it: but for what it's worth, here's some enlightenment on a silver platter ;)
when I watched full metal alchemist for the first time lol, I was like: "THIS SHOW IS SOOO HIP!"
#EsotericWisdom
#OccultKnowledge
#FORBIDDENshit
Alchemy can be traced back to the dawn of humanity with shamanism being the foundation of alchemy. After a while alchemy made extraordinary progression in the science and became renown as chemistry. The different methods of manipulation towards the molecular bonds and structure of an atom can be applied to your consciousness to bring about a change in your psyche. knowing astrology is also a key point in alchemy because each body out in the universe resonates at its own frequency which in terms effects your cells (depending in the positioning with other solar bodies). your cells and the foundation of your physical body are highly succeptable to this energy.
I can go all the way into the quantum physics and even philosophy of it: but for what it's worth, here's some enlightenment on a silver platter ;)
when I watched full metal alchemist for the first time lol, I was like: "THIS SHOW IS SOOO HIP!"
#EsotericWisdom
#OccultKnowledge
#FORBIDDENshit
0
For me personally, I prefer Newton's third law of action/reaction: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" - Equivalent exchange, as Cruz mentioned, is too perfect and absolute a law that doesn't quite seem to apply to reality. There is no spontaneous generation and you rarely, if ever, obtain something for free... but the idea that we are caught in an eternal give-and-take cycle of obtaining and losing at exactly the same value doesn't seem quite representative of actuality.
