The Official Kobe vs. LeBron Thread
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LeBron won the MVP, but Kobe won the title. Some of us are sick of those puppet commercials, but others, like me, believe the debate rages on.
Here are some things that were written in the "Favorite Athletes" thread on the subject.
However, if you define "clutch" as "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points,"(which is a common definition of clutch for statkeeping) here is how they stack up: 82games clutch stats
In this, I think LeBron still looks better. Kobe has the most points per 48. but LeBron is more accurate on twos, threes, rebounds better, passes, better, steals more, and blocks more. LeBron also has a substantially better +/-, despite the fact that very few would dispute the claim that Kobe has better teammates.
If you have to take one contested jumper at the end of a game, then yes, Kobe is probably your guy, since he is unparalleled at that. However, even on the last play of the game, you can look to drive, draw a foul, assist someone else, get a rebound for another shot if there are a few seconds left. I actually would guess that the reason Kobe has a worse FG% in the clutch according to these 82games stats is not because he is not as good a shooter, he's a better jump shooter than LeBron, but because he won't trust anyone else to take the shot and often jacks up bad looks, whereas LeBron has proven that he will pass up the horribly contested shot if it means an open shot for Mo Williams or one of the other Cavs shooters. He actually got criticized for passing to an open Delonte West for the final shot in game 1 of the Eastern Conference Finals because Delonte missed his open three. A lot of people thought LeBron should have tried to do it all himself.
Nah, i disagree.
Clutch is being a finisher, to be able to make your own shot, to produce offense when you team needs it, to be able to get your team into a rhythm. That is what a clutch player is. Kobe is the best at it in defiantly
[quote=mnx"]Watch that game. He finished the game(thus the term "finisher") with 29 of 30 last points of his team(he made most of the shots himself), produce offense when his team needs it(it was a CLOSE match, and his team needs him to get them to 3-2 series advantage obviously). That match was the best example of his clutchness, but he also had MANY clutch moments this year.
He did that with a shaky jumper. Imagine if he ever perfected his jumper.
And about being able to get your team into rhythm, see what happens to Cavs if Lebron is benched. Their rhythm is as bad as a 90-year old breakdancer.
Lebron is a clutch player. Like it or not you have to admit it. He is up there now, along with Kobe.
But admittedly every clutch players have their off moment. Lebron's clutch muscle is not working vs.Orlando this year. Kobe had it too. Remember 2008 Finals vs.Celtics? I wonder where's Kobe's clutch in that entire series.[/quote]
I stress "to be able to get your team into a rhythm" and to be able to phasilitate and lead your team through your play, actions and words. TO eb able to motivate your team. That is something Lebron failed to do this playoff season. Clutch is not defined by just the players actions but how his actions impact his team. Experience also plays a big factor in how clutch a player is.
Now about the Celtics finals series, The Lakers and Kobe played great, its just the Celtics were the better team.
So who is really the best? Kobe? LeBron? Someone else?
My response to GameON's most recent post:
You keep saying this stuff about Kobe but you're not putting forth any evidence. How does he facilitate? How does he lead?
I would argue Kobe is a scorer. His job is to score lots of points and attract defensive attention. This makes things easier for his teammates, but he has never been known for his assists or setting up his teammates.
Part of the reason I think LeBron is better is because he is an all-around player. He does facilitate and set up his teammates to a much higher degree than Kobe. He's also just a better passer than Kobe.
Throughout the playoffs, LeBron scored, passed, rebounded, led his team, and did it with great efficiency. If you want to go with any advanced metric: PER, WARP, win shares, they all will tell you LeBron was the most valuable player in the playoffs. If you watched most of the games, as I did, LeBron was consistently good to amazing(except in the OT of the one OT game vs. the Magic), whereas Kobe was up and down. LeBron's 7.3 apg also show that he was spending more time setting up teammates than Bryant, who had 5.5 a game.
What else do you mean by being a leader and facilitating? Every superstar in the NBA has their team's offense run through them: Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Howard, CP3. And for most of them, their team usually wins when they do well and usually loses when they play poorly. How is Kobe different? What is special about him?
As for the second part of your statement, Kobe played terribly in games 1, 4, and 6, well in games 2 and 4, and amazing in game 3.
Here are some things that were written in the "Favorite Athletes" thread on the subject.
WhiteLion wrote...
LeBron is already better than Kobe and in fact the best overall player in the NBA right now. Kobe has a much better team around him(Pau Gasol = All-NBA, Mo Williams = All-star reserve) and is still one of the best players in the game, which is why the Lakers won the title, but Kobe's insane skill with his jump shot and general beautiful textbook basketball form are really the only things he has on LeBron at this point. LeBron is a better passer, driver, rebounder, shotblocker, and didn't spend years pissing off teammates. Kobe is great and has proven to be a winner, but I think LeBron will win some titles as well before his career is over, and right now, LeBron is a better basketball player than Kobe. The stats back it up too.k3npach1 wrote...
LeBron is not as clutch as Kobe is in the 4th quarter yet. When it comes down to the need to make shots in the 4th quarter in clutch moments, Kobe easily beats LeBron James. I agree LBJ is an overall better player when it comes to most stats because he comes closer than anyone to averaging a freakin' triple double every game. LBJ needs to work on his free throws and his 3-pointers first. It is hard to put into words without contradicting myself all over the place. I think LBJ is definitely the best overall player, but if I wanted anyone in the 4th quarter taking shots it would definitely be Kobe.WhiteLion wrote...
Well, there's a reason they play for 48 minutes . . . Even assuming Kobe is better in the clutch, I'll still take the guy who is going to give me on average more over the course of the entire game.However, if you define "clutch" as "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points,"(which is a common definition of clutch for statkeeping) here is how they stack up: 82games clutch stats
In this, I think LeBron still looks better. Kobe has the most points per 48. but LeBron is more accurate on twos, threes, rebounds better, passes, better, steals more, and blocks more. LeBron also has a substantially better +/-, despite the fact that very few would dispute the claim that Kobe has better teammates.
If you have to take one contested jumper at the end of a game, then yes, Kobe is probably your guy, since he is unparalleled at that. However, even on the last play of the game, you can look to drive, draw a foul, assist someone else, get a rebound for another shot if there are a few seconds left. I actually would guess that the reason Kobe has a worse FG% in the clutch according to these 82games stats is not because he is not as good a shooter, he's a better jump shooter than LeBron, but because he won't trust anyone else to take the shot and often jacks up bad looks, whereas LeBron has proven that he will pass up the horribly contested shot if it means an open shot for Mo Williams or one of the other Cavs shooters. He actually got criticized for passing to an open Delonte West for the final shot in game 1 of the Eastern Conference Finals because Delonte missed his open three. A lot of people thought LeBron should have tried to do it all himself.
mnx wrote...
k3npach1 wrote...
LeBron is not as clutch as Kobe is in the 4th quarter yet. When it comes down to the need to make shots in the 4th quarter in clutch moments, Kobe easily beats LeBron James. I agree LBJ is an overall better player when it comes to most stats because he comes closer than anyone to averaging a freakin' triple double every game. LBJ needs to work on his free throws and his 3-pointers first. It is hard to put into words without contradicting myself all over the place. I think LBJ is definitely the best overall player, but if I wanted anyone in the 4th quarter taking shots it would definitely be Kobe. 8)Nah, i disagree.
In the Eastern Conference Finals, James led the Cavaliers from an 0–2 deficit against the Detroit Pistons to win the series in six games. His performance in Game 5 was especially memorable. James recorded a franchise-record 48 points on 54.5% field goal shooting, to go with 9 rebounds and 7 assists. In addition, James scored 29 of Cleveland's last 30 points, including the team's final 25 points in a double-overtime victory. NBA analyst Marv Albert referred to James's performance as "one of the greatest moments in postseason history," while color commentator Steve Kerr called it "Jordan-esque.
If you don't call that clutch i don't know what is.GameON wrote...
That is not clutch, that is Lebron doing work.Clutch is being a finisher, to be able to make your own shot, to produce offense when you team needs it, to be able to get your team into a rhythm. That is what a clutch player is. Kobe is the best at it in defiantly
[quote=mnx"]Watch that game. He finished the game(thus the term "finisher") with 29 of 30 last points of his team(he made most of the shots himself), produce offense when his team needs it(it was a CLOSE match, and his team needs him to get them to 3-2 series advantage obviously). That match was the best example of his clutchness, but he also had MANY clutch moments this year.
He did that with a shaky jumper. Imagine if he ever perfected his jumper.
And about being able to get your team into rhythm, see what happens to Cavs if Lebron is benched. Their rhythm is as bad as a 90-year old breakdancer.
Lebron is a clutch player. Like it or not you have to admit it. He is up there now, along with Kobe.
But admittedly every clutch players have their off moment. Lebron's clutch muscle is not working vs.Orlando this year. Kobe had it too. Remember 2008 Finals vs.Celtics? I wonder where's Kobe's clutch in that entire series.[/quote]
WhiteLion]Look at the numbers I posted from 82games.com above. If clutch is defined as causing your team to win games that are close with little time left, then LeBron was better at that than anyone this past year. People have these ideas in their heads about players, and yes, Kobe is a great player to have at the end of games, but if you watch the games and look at the stats, saying Kobe is the best clutch player in basketball right now simply doesn't cut it. Kobe probably is more "clutch" if you only include very last second jump shots(I haven't looked into it, but Kobe is generally better at long contested jump shots), rather than the ends of close games, as 82games does for their clutch stats. But simply being better at making the last second jump shot is substantially less valuable than being able to help your team win over a more extended period of time, and at this point, LeBron is clearly better at that, no matter whether you look at the beginning, middle, or end of games, regardless of the pressure and whether the games are close.
I don't know what to say about your comment that LeBron can't create his own shot and doesn't create offense for his team except that you need to watch the Cavs play more closely. LeBron can create his own shot(as can every elite NBA player to some degree), but he also is a great passer. Watch those easy layups he creates for Varejao by sneaking a pass to the low post on Varejao's cuts. Varejao is a great defender with pretty much no offensive ability to speak of, yet he still manages 8ppg on the Cavs, mostly because LeBron sets him up. LeBron also drives and kicks to Mo and Delonte for open threes. LeBron averaged 7.2 assists a game this past year, which is quite high for a non-point guard and especially impressive considering he also managed to put up 28ppg, showing that he isn't just looking to rack up the assists by passing.[/quote]
That is not clutch, that is Lebron doing work.
Clutch is being a finisher, to be able to make your own shot, to produce offense when you team needs it, to be able to get your team into a rhythm. That is what a clutch player is. Kobe is the best at it in defiantly
I don't know what to say about your comment that LeBron can't create his own shot and doesn't create offense for his team except that you need to watch the Cavs play more closely. LeBron can create his own shot(as can every elite NBA player to some degree), but he also is a great passer. Watch those easy layups he creates for Varejao by sneaking a pass to the low post on Varejao's cuts. Varejao is a great defender with pretty much no offensive ability to speak of, yet he still manages 8ppg on the Cavs, mostly because LeBron sets him up. LeBron also drives and kicks to Mo and Delonte for open threes. LeBron averaged 7.2 assists a game this past year, which is quite high for a non-point guard and especially impressive considering he also managed to put up 28ppg, showing that he isn't just looking to rack up the assists by passing.[/quote]
GameON wrote...
[quote="GameON wrote...That is not clutch, that is Lebron doing work.
Clutch is being a finisher, to be able to make your own shot, to produce offense when you team needs it, to be able to get your team into a rhythm. That is what a clutch player is. Kobe is the best at it in defiantly
I stress "to be able to get your team into a rhythm" and to be able to phasilitate and lead your team through your play, actions and words. TO eb able to motivate your team. That is something Lebron failed to do this playoff season. Clutch is not defined by just the players actions but how his actions impact his team. Experience also plays a big factor in how clutch a player is.
Now about the Celtics finals series, The Lakers and Kobe played great, its just the Celtics were the better team.
So who is really the best? Kobe? LeBron? Someone else?
My response to GameON's most recent post:
You keep saying this stuff about Kobe but you're not putting forth any evidence. How does he facilitate? How does he lead?
I would argue Kobe is a scorer. His job is to score lots of points and attract defensive attention. This makes things easier for his teammates, but he has never been known for his assists or setting up his teammates.
Part of the reason I think LeBron is better is because he is an all-around player. He does facilitate and set up his teammates to a much higher degree than Kobe. He's also just a better passer than Kobe.
Throughout the playoffs, LeBron scored, passed, rebounded, led his team, and did it with great efficiency. If you want to go with any advanced metric: PER, WARP, win shares, they all will tell you LeBron was the most valuable player in the playoffs. If you watched most of the games, as I did, LeBron was consistently good to amazing(except in the OT of the one OT game vs. the Magic), whereas Kobe was up and down. LeBron's 7.3 apg also show that he was spending more time setting up teammates than Bryant, who had 5.5 a game.
What else do you mean by being a leader and facilitating? Every superstar in the NBA has their team's offense run through them: Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Howard, CP3. And for most of them, their team usually wins when they do well and usually loses when they play poorly. How is Kobe different? What is special about him?
As for the second part of your statement, Kobe played terribly in games 1, 4, and 6, well in games 2 and 4, and amazing in game 3.
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Hold up...LeBron GOT THE MVP AWARD!??!?!???
sorry i did not watch the finals and awarding....
if youre going to ask who would be the best player in NBA i would go with Micheal Jordan..although he is not playing anymore he is still the best but as for lebron or kobe i think kobe would be better....
sorry i did not watch the finals and awarding....
if youre going to ask who would be the best player in NBA i would go with Micheal Jordan..although he is not playing anymore he is still the best but as for lebron or kobe i think kobe would be better....
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Senshi wrote...
Hold up...LeBron GOT THE MVP AWARD!??!?!???sorry i did not watch the finals and awarding....
if youre going to ask who would be the best player in NBA i would go with Micheal Jordan..although he is not playing anymore he is still the best but as for lebron or kobe i think kobe would be better....
Yes, LeBron won the MVP award with an overwhelming majority of the first place votes.
The idea is best player currently playing. Most people agree that MJ is the best player of all time.
Other than Kobe and LeBron, candidates could include Chris Paul, Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Tim Duncan(though he's getting old). Some of those are better options than others in my opinion, but all are elite players.
But anyways, why do you think Kobe is better?
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Well its probably because he can score up to 80 points alone (not sure) when he was just starting and now that he became a veteran i do believe he has gotten better especially when interacting with his teammates i mean he did not use to pass a ball but now he can...and of course when LA is in a pinch kobe is the one who gets all of the points back well almost
But lebron is good as well it should have been the cavs vs LA in the finals that would most probably be a better match i mean come on the finals sucked man!
But lebron is good as well it should have been the cavs vs LA in the finals that would most probably be a better match i mean come on the finals sucked man!
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Senshi wrote...
Well its probably because he can score up to 80 points alone (not sure) when he was just starting and now that he became a veteran i do believe he has gotten better especially when interacting with his teammates i mean he did not use to pass a ball but now he can...and of course when LA is in a pinch kobe is the one who gets all of the points back well almostBut lebron is good as well it should have been the cavs vs LA in the finals that would most probably be a better match i mean come on the finals sucked man!
Kobe was on his tenth year in the league when he scored 81 in a game(He only did this once. Not that that's a criticism, as the only other player to get to that number or above was Wilt Chamberlain. However, it would not be accurate to say that Kobe routinely goes around dropping 80 points on teams). However, Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 points in a game, and Jordan never came anywhere near that, yet most people still believe Jordan is the greatest ever. Why is this?
While you have to score to win points in basketball, the game involves doing a lot of other things: rebounding, passing, defense, etc. Also, you have to consider how efficiently a player scores points.
If a player scores 30 a game, a lot of times we look and that and think it is impressive. However, if the player has to use 40 possessions to score 30 points on 10/25 shooting with 10/14 FTs and 8 turnovers, he actually is a detriment to his team due to his inefficiency. This is actually the reasoning behind elite defender Shane Battier's style of defense. He doesn't get many blocks or steals, but he is good at forcing the players he guards to take inefficient shots.
The point is that looking at points scored is not a particularly good way to measure who the most valuable players are. Statisticians have tried to come up with more complex and holistic measurements, such as WARP, PER, and Win Shares, but there is still the question of what to place value on. Obviously getting a rebound is valuable and helps your team win, but how valuable is it compared to a basket or an assist? How do you measure the value of a player who plays good position defense and locks his man down, but doesn't steal the ball or get blocks?
Some of my posts from the other thread, quoted above, discuss how this ties in with my belief that right now LeBron is the best player in the NBA in that he does more to help his team win than anyone else.
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It is True that lebron does everything to help his team but doesn't kobe do that as well i mean he can gives assists and contribute some shots
but when you look at it in a different point of view most of the time in the semis the cavs would have a tremendous lead but nearing the fourth quarter they lose that lead and they lose why do you think that is???i would think that its because of lebrons teammates but if so why cant lebron score to win i mean when the lakers are down 10 points who is the one that scores 20 points for the team isn't it kobe?
well this is getting us nowhere why not just give them a one-on-one special to finally know who is better that would be way faster...and if your not satisfied with that have a five on five skirmish for lakers and cavs....well that was just a thought though
but when you look at it in a different point of view most of the time in the semis the cavs would have a tremendous lead but nearing the fourth quarter they lose that lead and they lose why do you think that is???i would think that its because of lebrons teammates but if so why cant lebron score to win i mean when the lakers are down 10 points who is the one that scores 20 points for the team isn't it kobe?
well this is getting us nowhere why not just give them a one-on-one special to finally know who is better that would be way faster...and if your not satisfied with that have a five on five skirmish for lakers and cavs....well that was just a thought though
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I would reasonably argue that Wilt is better then Michael. Wilt changed the game much more then Michael ever did. Even at that its unfair to compare players from decades to each other because basketball at the time changes. As when Wilt played there were no 3 point line or a number of rules that Micheal played with.
As Kobe and Lebron play in today's game, It is much harder to score then it was when Michael or Wilt played in there respective times. This is because of the newly intdroduced rules of double teaming and zone defenses. There for IMO, Kobe's feat of 81 points GREATER then Wilts 100. But it is still unfair to compare Michael to WIlt and them to Kobe or Lebron.
As for people agreeing that "Michael" is the best player, is not so much becasue of his skills but for different reasons. Because of the new generation alot of people grew up watching Michael play. Also Michael was a advertising magnet for companys. people would of seen him in ads, magazines and newspapers while the older players had no such self promotion in their time.
As Kobe and Lebron play in today's game, It is much harder to score then it was when Michael or Wilt played in there respective times. This is because of the newly intdroduced rules of double teaming and zone defenses. There for IMO, Kobe's feat of 81 points GREATER then Wilts 100. But it is still unfair to compare Michael to WIlt and them to Kobe or Lebron.
As for people agreeing that "Michael" is the best player, is not so much becasue of his skills but for different reasons. Because of the new generation alot of people grew up watching Michael play. Also Michael was a advertising magnet for companys. people would of seen him in ads, magazines and newspapers while the older players had no such self promotion in their time.
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GameON wrote...
I would reasonably argue that Wilt is better then Michael. Wilt changed the game much more then Michael ever did. Even at that its unfair to compare players from decades to each other because basketball at the time changes. As when Wilt played there were no 3 point line or a number of rules that Micheal played with. As Kobe and Lebron play in today's game, It is much harder to score then it was when Michael or Wilt played in there respective times. This is because of the newly intdroduced rules of double teaming and zone defenses. There for IMO, Kobe's feat of 81 points GREATER then Wilts 100. But it is still unfair to compare Michael to WIlt and them to Kobe or Lebron.
As for people agreeing that "Michael" is the best player, is not so much becasue of his skills but for different reasons. Because of the new generation alot of people grew up watching Michael play. Also Michael was a advertising magnet for companys. people would of seen him in ads, magazines and newspapers while the older players had no such self promotion in their time.
so you don't think Micheal is the best am i right??I agree that he had a lot of promotion ads BUT i haven't seen anyone jumped from free throw line like he did i mean he got to where he was BECAUSE he was hard working and probably still is
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Michael brought basketball into mainstream while Wilt revolutionized how basketball was played. Ive never seen anyone get near Wilts record of 55 rebounds. I mean they had to put a goaltending rule because he was so dominant.
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GameON wrote...
I would reasonably argue that Wilt is better then Michael. Wilt changed the game much more then Michael ever did. Even at that its unfair to compare players from decades to each other because basketball at the time changes. As when Wilt played there were no 3 point line or a number of rules that Micheal played with. As Kobe and Lebron play in today's game, It is much harder to score then it was when Michael or Wilt played in there respective times. This is because of the newly intdroduced rules of double teaming and zone defenses. There for IMO, Kobe's feat of 81 points GREATER then Wilts 100. But it is still unfair to compare Michael to WIlt and them to Kobe or Lebron.
As for people agreeing that "Michael" is the best player, is not so much becasue of his skills but for different reasons. Because of the new generation alot of people grew up watching Michael play. Also Michael was a advertising magnet for companys. people would of seen him in ads, magazines and newspapers while the older players had no such self promotion in their time.
You also have to account for a change of pace. Teams played a lot faster back in Wilt's day than even Jordan's, often to the tune of 20+ extra possessions per game, which naturally adds opportunity to get ridiculous stat lines. Someone compared the stats of Oscar Robertson's best season with LeBron 2008-09 and discovered that if you simply project for the difference in pace between the players' teams an eras, LeBron's numbers would actually have been higher(and the Big O averaged a triple double in this season)
It's also hard to compare stats of players from Wilt's era to more modern players because statkeeping was much less stringent. Blocks weren't even officially counted, and variations in assist credits were even more wild than today.
The reason most people think Jordan and not Wilt was the greatest ever is a little different. Wilt was a great player, but had some very obvious and real flaws. He couldn't shoot free throws. Certain players, like Bill Russell, often dominated him. He and his team were defeated in big game situations because of these flaws. He won two titles playing with at least three other Hall of Famers. That's nothing to laugh at, but Jordan won six playing with one other Hall of Famer(Pippen). Number of titles isn't necessarily a good way to measure who the best player is(Robert Horry has 9 or so and you'd be crazy to suggest that he is an all-time great), but the reasoning is related. Essentially, once Jordan reached his peak with the Bulls, he and his team were unbeatable. He won six titles in 7 years playing, and the only year he didn't win came right after he spent a year not even playing basketball at all. Wilt was incredibly dominant, but not quite on the same level(Yes, Russell was similarly dominant, but at that time there were only 8 teams in the league and Russell's teams were absolutely stacked, even compared to the Jordan Bulls.)
If you are going to argue for someone other than Jordan as the greatest, Wilt is definitely the person to support. I'm just trying to explain why I think the argument for Jordan is so strong.