Atheist vs. Christian epistemology.
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I'm going to post a video. I'm not going to make any comments, but it's me, debating a christian.
I just want some outsider-looking-in observation of how people thing I did.
Edit: For Gambler's sake, I suppose a little more substance to my post is in order, but I'll try not to put any sort of slant on the video.
Essentially it's me, BigLundi, or as I'm named in the video, "Alex from Pennsylvania" arguing with a young earth creationist fundamentalist christian about the subject of epistemology, or rather, how anyone comes to 'know' anything.
My stance: We can both come to know things, and we can hold different levels of certainty when it comes to other things. However as far as general truth value goes, the atheist, or rather, a naturalist in my position, makes less assumptions in order to get to this point. While I cannot say that my brain is 100% reliable, and I cannot say that I know anything 100% absolutely, it's my volition that the christian doesn't have any particular advantage, as they must concede the same things.
Creationliberty's stance: Anything less than 100% certainty might as well just be guessing. So long as the possibility exists that an almighty creator god COULD provide to us, knowledge so that we could be 100% certain, the christian epistemic view is better than the atheist naturalist view, because the atheist cannot point to an outside source that could reliably verify any information, while he can.
I just want some outsider-looking-in observation of how people thing I did.
Edit: For Gambler's sake, I suppose a little more substance to my post is in order, but I'll try not to put any sort of slant on the video.
Essentially it's me, BigLundi, or as I'm named in the video, "Alex from Pennsylvania" arguing with a young earth creationist fundamentalist christian about the subject of epistemology, or rather, how anyone comes to 'know' anything.
My stance: We can both come to know things, and we can hold different levels of certainty when it comes to other things. However as far as general truth value goes, the atheist, or rather, a naturalist in my position, makes less assumptions in order to get to this point. While I cannot say that my brain is 100% reliable, and I cannot say that I know anything 100% absolutely, it's my volition that the christian doesn't have any particular advantage, as they must concede the same things.
Creationliberty's stance: Anything less than 100% certainty might as well just be guessing. So long as the possibility exists that an almighty creator god COULD provide to us, knowledge so that we could be 100% certain, the christian epistemic view is better than the atheist naturalist view, because the atheist cannot point to an outside source that could reliably verify any information, while he can.
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I watched your eight minute version. The other guy needs to learn how to listen more than he speaks.
Overall, the debate was good. Good job on delivering your points. I think when it comes down to it peoples beliefs should be their own. That it should be consider a sin to try and convert others to believe what you believe. Like you stated that it is more easier to talk about what you trust in with like minded people. I am just saying trying to talk to people of a different belief is asking for trouble. That is all however does not mean that you should not try if the opportunity happens to come by.
This however should not be confused with warning people...
Again good job.
Overall, the debate was good. Good job on delivering your points. I think when it comes down to it peoples beliefs should be their own. That it should be consider a sin to try and convert others to believe what you believe. Like you stated that it is more easier to talk about what you trust in with like minded people. I am just saying trying to talk to people of a different belief is asking for trouble. That is all however does not mean that you should not try if the opportunity happens to come by.
This however should not be confused with warning people...
Again good job.
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I had some dificulty to understand everything since my first language is not english but i like listening to debates . I just wanted to understand something , what was his point all along ? He tries to prove that your brain is unreliable and since it's unreliable you cannot know if there is a god or no so you have to assume that there is one ?
Anyway this guy is an idiot . He wasn't listening to half you were saying and in the end seriously at the why question he wasn't listening at all and doign non logical conter arguments . I'm happy it ended there , it started to be really frusrtrating listening to him -_-
Anyway this guy is an idiot . He wasn't listening to half you were saying and in the end seriously at the why question he wasn't listening at all and doign non logical conter arguments . I'm happy it ended there , it started to be really frusrtrating listening to him -_-
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[color=#2e1a6b]I watched the debate and the 8 minute commentary on the debate, and I was... entertained, to say the least. I have never done any study on philosophy or epistemology, so it was a little difficult for me to understand some of the terms you used (particularly the different types of certainty). I was amused how he argued that his definition of certainty was better because of popular appeal, but later (at 19:57) accused you of making assumptions based on popular appeal. When he argued "circular reasoning", he didn't understand what doubt proved. at 26:13, he was saying that doubt cannot prove that your brain is reliable... but you weren't using doubt to prove that your brain is reliable, you were using doubt to prove you exist.
I'm a christian, and I can tell you that God exists in this universe. I don't know what he was saying about "he sometimes exists". But I don't know how to answer your question of "why does God exist?". The answer isn't "because he loves us"; that would answer the question "why did Jesus die on the cross". So I can't give a reason for why God exists, but at the same time, I can't give a reason that anything exists. Is there supposed to be a reason why things/beings exist? if so, can you give some examples
Considering how much we usually disagree, I was surprised with how much I agreed with you.
I'm a christian, and I can tell you that God exists in this universe. I don't know what he was saying about "he sometimes exists". But I don't know how to answer your question of "why does God exist?". The answer isn't "because he loves us"; that would answer the question "why did Jesus die on the cross". So I can't give a reason for why God exists, but at the same time, I can't give a reason that anything exists. Is there supposed to be a reason why things/beings exist? if so, can you give some examples
Considering how much we usually disagree, I was surprised with how much I agreed with you.
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Lelouch24 wrote...
[color=#2e1a6b]I watched the debate and the 8 minute commentary on the debate, and I was... entertained, to say the least. I have never done any study on philosophy or epistemology, so it was a little difficult for me to understand some of the terms you used (particularly the different types of certainty). I was amused how he argued that his definition of certainty was better because of popular appeal, but later (at 19:57) accused you of making assumptions based on popular appeal. When he argued "circular reasoning", he didn't understand what doubt proved. at 26:13, he was saying that doubt cannot prove that your brain is reliable... but you weren't using doubt to prove that your brain is reliable, you were using doubt to prove you exist. I'm a christian, and I can tell you that God exists in this universe. I don't know what he was saying about "he sometimes exists". But I don't know how to answer your question of "why does God exist?". The answer isn't "because he loves us"; that would answer the question "why did Jesus die on the cross". So I can't give a reason for why God exists, but at the same time, I can't give a reason that anything exists. Is there supposed to be a reason why things/beings exist? if so, can you give some examples
Considering how much we usually disagree, I was surprised with how much I agreed with you.
Ah shit, I didn't want people watching my 8 minute diatribe, it gives my slanted bias view.
Ah well, it was one of my Skype friends that put the vid up, and the annotation. Anywhozle...
When I asked the question "Why does god exist instead of not exist?" He dodged the question at first, asking me why I was asking the question, then he said god always existed, but THEN he admitted, "No, I don't know that. I don't claim to."
And that's the correct answer.
The point of that question, plus the others that I WANTED to ask is that EVERY epistemology is subject to the same stripping away of layers to basic assumptions about reality.
To a naturalist like me, the universe just is, the way it is, for no particular prescribed reason.
For a christian, or any theist, God just is, the way he is, for no particular reason.
My questions I wanted to ask were in this order:
"Why does god exist instead of not exist?"
"Why does god have the particular traits and characteristics he has, instead of different traits and characteristics?"
"Why is God's will effective, rather than ineffective?"
In any theistic view, when the questions are answered honestly, it's easy to see that all of these things, are things that are simply assumed.
Given that, God just exists, for no reason, with no cause, with arbitrary characteristics.
As a naturalistic atheist, I'm subject to the same stripping away, however it's MY position that I make less assumptions, and that makes my epistemology superior, if only for that reason.
There are a lot of other things I'd like to point out, but there's actually a video on Youtube that does a better job. It's a guy named Scott Clifton, also known as TheoreticalBullshit, responding to a similar argument called "TAG".
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"Why does god exist instead of not exist?"
"Why does god have the particular traits and characteristics he has, instead of different traits and characteristics?"
"Why is God's will effective, rather than ineffective?"
"Why does god have the particular traits and characteristics he has, instead of different traits and characteristics?"
"Why is God's will effective, rather than ineffective?"
The video you linked had some good insight.
I have not studied epistemology however it is the study of justified belief so I think I should be able to do this.
The first question I am sorry but I must answer your question with a question.
Why do we exist instead of not exist?
The second question I can answer somewhat.
It is believed that we are nothing more than dopplegangers of God hence our traits and characteristics are no differnet than God. The saying goes we were made in God's image. Most people assume that means we have the body of God and God like us has a gender and etcetera however we are nothing more than an idea of God like an artist when he concepts a new character design. We as humans, mammals, or whatever are nothing more than a concept. Overall, even though we are like God we cannot be ignorant and claim that we have dominion over anything until we have doninion over ourselves first. To even gain that much insight does not change that we are only supposedly different from God in the sense of immortality and mortality. (I hope that made sense)
The third question I think I can make more sense on the concept of belief here.
God's will is suppose to be part of the ten commandments and so on in the other books afterwards excluding the new testament. God's will is law, statute, logic, and suppose to represent freedom or death. To the extent that an individual knows or is aware that if you choose to live by God's will you live but if not you die. God's will is nothing more than the concept of right and wrong. Overall, what it comes down to on is why is God's law effective instead of the opposite. I can only say that people find that God's will has worked for many decades and centuries. Where compared to man-made laws something crucial must happen first before a law or will is created for it. Problem is that when one member of society messes up. We all suffer for it. We being the members of the free world should understand that form of logic only works and should fly in the armed forces.
When a soldier is on a mission and is not sharp he can cost his allies the success of that mission. See we are not soldiers we have no reason to be treated as such so if we can not be looked upon that way. We are then labeled terrorist. That form of sensationalism right there is exactly why man's will is corrupt. Why should we the people suffer because one person wants to mess with under aged human beings, commit other unfavorable crimes, and etc. Be righteous not vigilant...
I would go more into detail but man I would have alot to explain. Alot! I hope I made sense to you. I mean if I did not justify the way people are suppose to think of God. Then I failed...
This is a good topic.
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Gravity cat
the adequately amused
As unconstructive as I will sound: I now know what you look like, BL.
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BlackShogunFox wrote...
I have not studied epistemology however it is the study of justified belief so I think I should be able to do this.
Well you're free to give it a shot.
The first question I am sorry but I must answer your question with a question.
Why do we exist instead of not exist?
Why do we exist instead of not exist?
That's kind of the point of the question. As I already pointed out in my response to Lelouch, the universe, and all things within it...just exist. For no reason. I could give the scientific explanation as yo how we got here, but that doesn't answer the intended question as to WHY, because why do we exist, by necessity asks what the purpose is, not how it occurred. And a purpose can only be established by an outside source.
The second question I can answer somewhat.
It is believed that we are nothing more than dopplegangers of God hence our traits and characteristics are no differnet than God. The saying goes we were made in God's image. Most people assume that means we have the body of God and God like us has a gender and etcetera however we are nothing more than an idea of God like an artist when he concepts a new character design. We as humans, mammals, or whatever are nothing more than a concept. Overall, even though we are like God we cannot be ignorant and claim that we have dominion over anything until we have doninion over ourselves first. To even gain that much insight does not change that we are only supposedly different from God in the sense of immortality and mortality. (I hope that made sense)
It is believed that we are nothing more than dopplegangers of God hence our traits and characteristics are no differnet than God. The saying goes we were made in God's image. Most people assume that means we have the body of God and God like us has a gender and etcetera however we are nothing more than an idea of God like an artist when he concepts a new character design. We as humans, mammals, or whatever are nothing more than a concept. Overall, even though we are like God we cannot be ignorant and claim that we have dominion over anything until we have doninion over ourselves first. To even gain that much insight does not change that we are only supposedly different from God in the sense of immortality and mortality. (I hope that made sense)
I don't know why you thought that answered the question. To be clear, the question is: "Why does god have the traits and characteristics he has, instead of different traits and characteristics?" And your answer is, essentially...that humans have these traits and characteristics.
But...that doesn't really answer why GOD has these characteristics. You can answer why WE do by saying God made us that way, but if you use that logic, then you'd have to say God has his because...of some...super god. Or you can say he just does have these traits.
The third question I think I can make more sense on the concept of belief here.
God's will is suppose to be part of the ten commandments and so on in the other books afterwards excluding the new testament. God's will is law, statute, logic, and suppose to represent freedom or death. To the extent that an individual knows or is aware that if you choose to live by God's will you live but if not you die. God's will is nothing more than the concept of right and wrong. Overall, what it comes down to on is why is God's law effective instead of the opposite. I can only say that people find that God's will has worked for many decades and centuries. Where compared to man-made laws something crucial must happen first before a law or will is created for it. Problem is that when one member of society messes up. We all suffer for it. We being the members of the free world should understand that form of logic only works and should fly in the armed forces.
When a soldier is on a mission and is not sharp he can cost his allies the success of that mission. See we are not soldiers we have no reason to be treated as such so if we can not be looked upon that way. We are then labeled terrorist. That form of sensationalism right there is exactly why man's will is corrupt. Why should we the people suffer because one person wants to mess with under aged human beings, commit other unfavorable crimes, and etc. Be righteous not vigilant...
I would go more into detail but man I would have alot to explain. Alot! I hope I made sense to you. I mean if I did not justify the way people are suppose to think of God. Then I failed...
This is a good topic.
God's will is suppose to be part of the ten commandments and so on in the other books afterwards excluding the new testament. God's will is law, statute, logic, and suppose to represent freedom or death. To the extent that an individual knows or is aware that if you choose to live by God's will you live but if not you die. God's will is nothing more than the concept of right and wrong. Overall, what it comes down to on is why is God's law effective instead of the opposite. I can only say that people find that God's will has worked for many decades and centuries. Where compared to man-made laws something crucial must happen first before a law or will is created for it. Problem is that when one member of society messes up. We all suffer for it. We being the members of the free world should understand that form of logic only works and should fly in the armed forces.
When a soldier is on a mission and is not sharp he can cost his allies the success of that mission. See we are not soldiers we have no reason to be treated as such so if we can not be looked upon that way. We are then labeled terrorist. That form of sensationalism right there is exactly why man's will is corrupt. Why should we the people suffer because one person wants to mess with under aged human beings, commit other unfavorable crimes, and etc. Be righteous not vigilant...
I would go more into detail but man I would have alot to explain. Alot! I hope I made sense to you. I mean if I did not justify the way people are suppose to think of God. Then I failed...
This is a good topic.
To answer why god's will is effective RATHER than ineffective...you just sort of...explained how effective his will is.
That doesn't answer the question of "why" or the "purpose" of his will being effective. You say "His power is based on logic, it's law, it's statute and it's supposed to do this" but all of that is simply explaining what his will is...not...why...it is that way.
@ Gravity Cat
I'm a sexy beast ain't I? ;)
1
FinalBoss
#levelupyourgrind
I listened to the whole thing (nothing better to do), and it was pretty much what I'd expect from a atheist vs creationist debate. At the end, you were right, he didn't give a very good answer to your question. If I recall:
Q: "Why does god exist?"
A: "God exists for us."
Lol, wtf? If anything, god exists for himself otherwise we'd be a lot happier than we are now. On the flipside though, if we assume god has always existed then there is no reason for his existence, he just is. I mean, the reason I exist is because my mom and dad got busy, but apparently God defies this logic. In otherwords, God is unreasonable, lol. Humans are the funniest animals on the planet I swear.
Q: "Why does god exist?"
A: "God exists for us."
Lol, wtf? If anything, god exists for himself otherwise we'd be a lot happier than we are now. On the flipside though, if we assume god has always existed then there is no reason for his existence, he just is. I mean, the reason I exist is because my mom and dad got busy, but apparently God defies this logic. In otherwords, God is unreasonable, lol. Humans are the funniest animals on the planet I swear.
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Mod Note: I received a report that this thread should not belong in the Serious Discussions section as it contained only a video. Under the rules, "video" topics should belong in the Incoherent Babbling section.
However, after some consideration, especially upon looking through the replies of the above members, I will leave it in the Serious Discussions section for now. Nonetheless, I would urge the thread starter to post at least a summary of what the focus of this topic should be.
Thank you for your kind understanding and cooperation.
However, after some consideration, especially upon looking through the replies of the above members, I will leave it in the Serious Discussions section for now. Nonetheless, I would urge the thread starter to post at least a summary of what the focus of this topic should be.
Thank you for your kind understanding and cooperation.
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BigLundi wrote...
BlackShogunFox wrote...
I have not studied epistemology however it is the study of justified belief so I think I should be able to do this.
Well you're free to give it a shot.
The first question I am sorry but I must answer your question with a question.
Why do we exist instead of not exist?
Why do we exist instead of not exist?
That's kind of the point of the question. As I already pointed out in my response to Lelouch, the universe, and all things within it...just exist. For no reason. I could give the scientific explanation as yo how we got here, but that doesn't answer the intended question as to WHY, because why do we exist, by necessity asks what the purpose is, not how it occurred. And a purpose can only be established by an outside source.
Well let me start by saying that epistemology is a good study. I find no flaws in it (yet) and you have to anwser both sides of the arguement.
I think I know the scientific explanation however you are the one asking the questions so therefor I must provide you an answer as to why people think like this. So here we go. People believe our existence is based off exactly what we are doing right kickin knowledge to one another. Ironically God told people with all your getting get knowledge. Information is one of the most useful tools in everything we do. Hell it is part of everything we do it is extremely fascinatin when you think about it a little harder. Like the sensation when you first learned to walk. God's existence and our existence is based off nothing more than knowledge. For without knowledge no one could exist I mean think about it for a second. Imagine lets say we know for a fact God does not exist do you think the world and everything would be perfect just the way it is? Planets would probably be misaligned, every living thing would probably have the appearance of the elephant man, and we could probably be in the jurassic age right now breathing chemicals in the environment that we could possibly never live in unless we adapted to them. Now Stephen Hawking thinks that gravity would have eventually made everything the way it is right now however people still doubt...
The second question I can answer somewhat.
It is believed that we are nothing more than dopplegangers of God hence our traits and characteristics are no differnet than God. The saying goes we were made in God's image. Most people assume that means we have the body of God and God like us has a gender and etcetera however we are nothing more than an idea of God like an artist when he concepts a new character design. We as humans, mammals, or whatever are nothing more than a concept. Overall, even though we are like God we cannot be ignorant and claim that we have dominion over anything until we have doninion over ourselves first. To even gain that much insight does not change that we are only supposedly different from God in the sense of immortality and mortality. (I hope that made sense)
It is believed that we are nothing more than dopplegangers of God hence our traits and characteristics are no differnet than God. The saying goes we were made in God's image. Most people assume that means we have the body of God and God like us has a gender and etcetera however we are nothing more than an idea of God like an artist when he concepts a new character design. We as humans, mammals, or whatever are nothing more than a concept. Overall, even though we are like God we cannot be ignorant and claim that we have dominion over anything until we have doninion over ourselves first. To even gain that much insight does not change that we are only supposedly different from God in the sense of immortality and mortality. (I hope that made sense)
I don't know why you thought that answered the question. To be clear, the question is: "Why does god have the traits and characteristics he has, instead of different traits and characteristics?" And your answer is, essentially...that humans have these traits and characteristics.
But...that doesn't really answer why GOD has these characteristics. You can answer why WE do by saying God made us that way, but if you use that logic, then you'd have to say God has his because...of some...super god. Or you can say he just does have these traits.
Well I have to choose God just has these traits...Do I have to explain anything more?
The third question I think I can make more sense on the concept of belief here.
God's will is suppose to be part of the ten commandments and so on in the other books afterwards excluding the new testament. God's will is law, statute, logic, and suppose to represent freedom or death. To the extent that an individual knows or is aware that if you choose to live by God's will you live but if not you die. God's will is nothing more than the concept of right and wrong. Overall, what it comes down to on is why is God's law effective instead of the opposite. I can only say that people find that God's will has worked for many decades and centuries. Where compared to man-made laws something crucial must happen first before a law or will is created for it. Problem is that when one member of society messes up. We all suffer for it. We being the members of the free world should understand that form of logic only works and should fly in the armed forces.
When a soldier is on a mission and is not sharp he can cost his allies the success of that mission. See we are not soldiers we have no reason to be treated as such so if we can not be looked upon that way. We are then labeled terrorist. That form of sensationalism right there is exactly why man's will is corrupt. Why should we the people suffer because one person wants to mess with under aged human beings, commit other unfavorable crimes, and etc. Be righteous not vigilant...
I would go more into detail but man I would have alot to explain. Alot! I hope I made sense to you. I mean if I did not justify the way people are suppose to think of God. Then I failed...
This is a good topic.
God's will is suppose to be part of the ten commandments and so on in the other books afterwards excluding the new testament. God's will is law, statute, logic, and suppose to represent freedom or death. To the extent that an individual knows or is aware that if you choose to live by God's will you live but if not you die. God's will is nothing more than the concept of right and wrong. Overall, what it comes down to on is why is God's law effective instead of the opposite. I can only say that people find that God's will has worked for many decades and centuries. Where compared to man-made laws something crucial must happen first before a law or will is created for it. Problem is that when one member of society messes up. We all suffer for it. We being the members of the free world should understand that form of logic only works and should fly in the armed forces.
When a soldier is on a mission and is not sharp he can cost his allies the success of that mission. See we are not soldiers we have no reason to be treated as such so if we can not be looked upon that way. We are then labeled terrorist. That form of sensationalism right there is exactly why man's will is corrupt. Why should we the people suffer because one person wants to mess with under aged human beings, commit other unfavorable crimes, and etc. Be righteous not vigilant...
I would go more into detail but man I would have alot to explain. Alot! I hope I made sense to you. I mean if I did not justify the way people are suppose to think of God. Then I failed...
This is a good topic.
To answer why god's will is effective RATHER than ineffective...you just sort of...explained how effective his will is.
That doesn't answer the question of "why" or the "purpose" of his will being effective. You say "His power is based on logic, it's law, it's statute and it's supposed to do this" but all of that is simply explaining what his will is...not...why...it is that way.
Oh man. I thought I covered all the bases. I guess I will try again here. The only reason people find God's will effective is because the goal of the people is to be righteous. To be righteous you must know right from wrong however the sad part is understanding how it works. You see the wicked may think they resent God however God considers the wicked God's sword hence God is the shield. God protects God's people from that sword. The sword or the wicked are nothing more than a deterent towards those who stray from the pack in the wilderness hence it means those who decide it is more profitable to do wrong doing than right will meet a cruel fate. God is also believed by people to be more merciful than in the days of old. So even if you do stray you can always come back to the pack however there are are few ways to exile yourself from the pack for life(which I wish not to discuss). These people tend to suffer more greatly than others. It is unfair however we as the human race must understand we can deal with any type environment regardless of what we are up against. So there is no need to worry about your follow man. A man(and woman) are judged by what they do or say. That in turn determines what or how their individual lifestyle is. Do you meet with great fortune or suffering. That said most people do not care if the rich keep getting richer as it is stated by God. They thrive early like a tree in Lebanon only to be destroyed forever. Overall, people believe God's will is effective simply because they have seen it with their own eyes. (I hope I made sense.)
@ Gravity Cat
I'm a sexy beast ain't I? ;)
0
BlackShogunFox wrote...
Well let me start by saying that epistemology is a good study. I find no flaws in it (yet) and you have to anwser both sides of the arguement.
Well, I'm sure epistemological professors around the world are breathing a sigh of relief that BlackShogunfox approves of their study. :P
I think I know the scientific explanation however you are the one asking the questions so therefor I must provide you an answer as to why people think like this.
I'm not asking questions as to why people think like this. Neurology and psychology can answer that question, this is about epistemology.
So here we go. People believe our existence is based off exactly what we are doing right kickin knowledge to one another. Ironically God told people with all your getting get knowledge. Information is one of the most useful tools in everything we do. Hell it is part of everything we do it is extremely fascinatin when you think about it a little harder. Like the sensation when you first learned to walk. God's existence and our existence is based off nothing more than knowledge. For without knowledge no one could exist I mean think about it for a second. Imagine lets say we know for a fact God does not exist do you think the world and everything would be perfect just the way it is? Planets would probably be misaligned, every living thing would probably have the appearance of the elephant man, and we could probably be in the jurassic age right now breathing chemicals in the environment that we could possibly never live in unless we adapted to them. Now Stephen Hawking thinks that gravity would have eventually made everything the way it is right now however people still doubt...
So...your answer is that...if God didn't exist, things would probably be different.
I know you're trying, but I'm just telling you, epistemology, you're not answering the question. I can replace everything you said in that answer with the phrase, "God exists because he just has to" and there would be just as much substance towards an answer to question. And that's what I've been telling you is the unavoidable response you have to give on this issue.
Well I have to choose God just has these traits...Do I have to explain anything more?
Which is essentially the same thing as admitting you're just making things up.
Oh man. I thought I covered all the bases. I guess I will try again here. The only reason people find God's will effective is because the goal of the people is to be righteous. To be righteous you must know right from wrong however the sad part is understanding how it works. You see the wicked may think they resent God however God considers the wicked God's sword hence God is the shield. God protects God's people from that sword. The sword or the wicked are nothing more than a deterent towards those who stray from the pack in the wilderness hence it means those who decide it is more profitable to do wrong doing than right will meet a cruel fate.
God's will is effective rather than ineffective because if it was ineffective, he couldn't protect us? That's blatant question begging that God exists for the purpose of...us...and that's logically incoherent.
God is also believed by people to be more merciful than in the days of old. So even if you do stray you can always come back to the pack however there are are few ways to exile yourself from the pack for life(which I wish not to discuss). These people tend to suffer more greatly than others. It is unfair however we as the human race must understand we can deal with any type environment regardless of what we are up against. So there is no need to worry about your follow man. A man(and woman) are judged by what they do or say. That in turn determines what or how their individual lifestyle is. Do you meet with great fortune or suffering. That said most people do not care if the rich keep getting richer as it is stated by God. They thrive early like a tree in Lebanon only to be destroyed forever. Overall, people believe God's will is effective simply because they have seen it with their own eyes. (I hope I made sense.)
Not really. The essential answer you gave was a question begging statement based on a self defeating logical incoherence.
And after that you essentially just...kind of...gave a rough outline of god's mercy and justice in christianity. None of which actually answers the question.
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BigLundi wrote...
BlackShogunFox wrote...
Well let me start by saying that epistemology is a good study. I find no flaws in it (yet) and you have to anwser both sides of the arguement.
Well, I'm sure epistemological professors around the world are breathing a sigh of relief that BlackShogunfox approves of their study. :P
Heh...
I think I know the scientific explanation however you are the one asking the questions so therefor I must provide you an answer as to why people think like this.
I'm not asking questions as to why people think like this. Neurology and psychology can answer that question, this is about epistemology.
Understood however that is just the way it seemed to me I know better now.
So here we go. People believe our existence is based off exactly what we are doing right kickin knowledge to one another. Ironically God told people with all your getting get knowledge. Information is one of the most useful tools in everything we do. Hell it is part of everything we do it is extremely fascinatin when you think about it a little harder. Like the sensation when you first learned to walk. God's existence and our existence is based off nothing more than knowledge. For without knowledge no one could exist I mean think about it for a second. Imagine lets say we know for a fact God does not exist do you think the world and everything would be perfect just the way it is? Planets would probably be misaligned, every living thing would probably have the appearance of the elephant man, and we could probably be in the jurassic age right now breathing chemicals in the environment that we could possibly never live in unless we adapted to them. Now Stephen Hawking thinks that gravity would have eventually made everything the way it is right now however people still doubt...
So...your answer is that...if God didn't exist, things would probably be different.
Yes and no, at the same time what I am saying is that regardless of what we say there is a chance one answer. You or my answer could be right. There is no definitive answer...
I know you're trying, but I'm just telling you, epistemology, you're not answering the question. I can replace everything you said in that answer with the phrase, "God exists because he just has to" and there would be just as much substance towards an answer to question. And that's what I've been telling you is the unavoidable response you have to give on this issue.
So all the responses so far have seemed that way? Are you sure? I am quite sure I stated God's existence being based off our existence. Since the issue is disproving or proving God's existence. I have said if I am correct we exist because of God and God could not exist without us. I am sure I have hinted at this throughout our responses to one another thus far.
I see what you are saying if I stated "God exist just because." Then I would not be showing any logic on what for. I will say once more we exist and God exist vice versa because one can not live by bread alone. God to people is a need for survivial.
Well I have to choose God just has these traits...Do I have to explain anything more?
Which is essentially the same thing as admitting you're just making things up.
I see what you mean Lundi. But even you have to understand I could not have possible made this up. I have to say the reason I stated that response is because you yourself Lundi gave me some choices last response and I chose the most logicial one based on what I was trying explain. Now back on the subject at hand Lundi you must understand you have an abundant amount of knowledge. That I had to study this or read this from somewhere. Do you really think I could have come up with this on my own? Ok, let's say I did. What logic would I have to be possessed on to come up with this lie? While answering that what reason for? Personal gain, trying to keep alive some dark ages study no one cares about, or could it be I am just being a simpleton like in pervious post from before?
Oh man. I thought I covered all the bases. I guess I will try again here. The only reason people find God's will effective is because the goal of the people is to be righteous. To be righteous you must know right from wrong however the sad part is understanding how it works. You see the wicked may think they resent God however God considers the wicked God's sword hence God is the shield. God protects God's people from that sword. The sword or the wicked are nothing more than a deterent towards those who stray from the pack in the wilderness hence it means those who decide it is more profitable to do wrong doing than right will meet a cruel fate.
God's will is effective rather than ineffective because if it was ineffective, he couldn't protect us? That's blatant question begging that God exists for the purpose of...us...and that's logically incoherent.
Incoherent would imply that it does not add up. How come you figure that it does not? Just curious?
God is also believed by people to be more merciful than in the days of old. So even if you do stray you can always come back to the pack however there are are few ways to exile yourself from the pack for life(which I wish not to discuss). These people tend to suffer more greatly than others. It is unfair however we as the human race must understand we can deal with any type environment regardless of what we are up against. So there is no need to worry about your follow man. A man(and woman) are judged by what they do or say. That in turn determines what or how their individual lifestyle is. Do you meet with great fortune or suffering. That said most people do not care if the rich keep getting richer as it is stated by God. They thrive early like a tree in Lebanon only to be destroyed forever. Overall, people believe God's will is effective simply because they have seen it with their own eyes. (I hope I made sense.)
Not really. The essential answer you gave was a question begging statement based on a self defeating logical incoherence.
I see so my response which did not add up is self defeating as well. How come? So what you are stating is no one's existence should not be to serve another. Ok, answer this then why do people on this timid little planet serve anyone? If man is suppose to be free of belief you should be able to create your own set of rules customized solely for your beliefs. For example, People could say; Oh God does not exist and people could give two craps about man-made law. People will now go on ahead to get drunk beat up midgets. Do whatever the heck they want. So what even if man created a set of rules people would not care. People would say who are you to tell me what to do? Sure phony deterents such as prison, halfway house, and death penalties could combat the would be oppressed individuals however what if they become a career criminal? You do not have to be in the Marine Corp. to be able to do or complete objectives based on complete and utter anarchy. Destruction is like gravity. It is the sole concept of the downfall of civilizations. I always imagined a world where the weak who use to be the strong get oppressed by the strong who use to be the weak.
Overall, I find destruction to be nothing more than creation. I ask myself why can't we as people not evolve more than what we are? People say we are evolving because of technology. The problem is technology is an inanimate object therefore cannot evolve. It's the knowlegde behind the making of that technology that has evolved for better or worse.
And after that you essentially just...kind of...gave a rough outline of god's mercy and justice in christianity. None of which actually answers the question.
Let me get this out of the way now so you cannot make this mistake again. I have iterated that God does not have a gender. You have refered to God as he multiple times. That is an average commoners mistake when people talk of God. I will break it down like this. The "he" you refer to is Jesus Christ which was not his name. Christ is a greek word meaning anointed with oil. Yashua Bin Yosef was his name. Who did a taboo of saying he was God in front of a group of Muslims who threw rocks at him and outcast him from their city. He went to Roman to later preach words that only a false prophet would say only to be took captive by oppressers their also. What he did wrong here was preach words in a city that had a multitude of pagan gods. So when time came to sentence him they falsely accused him and decide to have him made an example out of. They crucified him and as he was being tortured he screamed "Allah" from atop the cross. This should prove he was a false prophet and a false god. How can you claim to be God yet scream aloud Muslim God's name from atop the cross. So he died. Now this is where it gets really interesting. Skip ahead to the present Romans now have christianity as a religion. Does no one but me see a problem here? How can these same roman's establish christianity yet you killed a man for the same teachings you resented. God is looked upon as a joke because of people like the Pope and his supposed partners in crime. They are doing cruel things to children and much more. What I see is an empire that died a long time ago using a pagan religion to cover up their sick habits from the days of a forgotten civilization.
Overall, what I am saying is God does not belong to muslims, jews(who are greeks by the way), or supposed christians. God does not have a gender or form heck even if people knew what God looked like people believe they would be dead by now because anywho look upon God would surely die. Long story short pagan gods have a gender and form. One GOD is enough for some people. So in other words I am not a christian I do not represent no type of religion. Do not care too either.
So I kindly ask that you rephrase your question to me please. So I may answer it in a concise manner...
Thanks
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BlackShogunFox wrote...
BigLundi wrote...
BlackShogunFox wrote...
Well let me start by saying that epistemology is a good study. I find no flaws in it (yet) and you have to anwser both sides of the arguement.
Well, I'm sure epistemological professors around the world are breathing a sigh of relief that BlackShogunfox approves of their study. :P
Heh...
I think I know the scientific explanation however you are the one asking the questions so therefor I must provide you an answer as to why people think like this.
I'm not asking questions as to why people think like this. Neurology and psychology can answer that question, this is about epistemology.
Understood however that is just the way it seemed to me I know better now.
So here we go. People believe our existence is based off exactly what we are doing right kickin knowledge to one another. Ironically God told people with all your getting get knowledge. Information is one of the most useful tools in everything we do. Hell it is part of everything we do it is extremely fascinatin when you think about it a little harder. Like the sensation when you first learned to walk. God's existence and our existence is based off nothing more than knowledge. For without knowledge no one could exist I mean think about it for a second. Imagine lets say we know for a fact God does not exist do you think the world and everything would be perfect just the way it is? Planets would probably be misaligned, every living thing would probably have the appearance of the elephant man, and we could probably be in the jurassic age right now breathing chemicals in the environment that we could possibly never live in unless we adapted to them. Now Stephen Hawking thinks that gravity would have eventually made everything the way it is right now however people still doubt...
So...your answer is that...if God didn't exist, things would probably be different.
Yes and no, at the same time what I am saying is that regardless of what we say there is a chance one answer. You or my answer could be right. There is no definitive answer...
I know you're trying, but I'm just telling you, epistemology, you're not answering the question. I can replace everything you said in that answer with the phrase, "God exists because he just has to" and there would be just as much substance towards an answer to question. And that's what I've been telling you is the unavoidable response you have to give on this issue.
So all the responses so far have seemed that way? Are you sure? I am quite sure I stated God's existence being based off our existence. Since the issue is disproving or proving God's existence. I have said if I am correct we exist because of God and God could not exist without us. I am sure I have hinted at this throughout our responses to one another thus far.
I see what you are saying if I stated "God exist just because." Then I would not be showing any logic on what for. I will say once more we exist and God exist vice versa because one can not live by bread alone. God to people is a need for survivial.
Well I have to choose God just has these traits...Do I have to explain anything more?
Which is essentially the same thing as admitting you're just making things up.
I see what you mean Lundi. But even you have to understand I could not have possible made this up. I have to say the reason I stated that response is because you yourself Lundi gave me some choices last response and I chose the most logicial one based on what I was trying explain. Now back on the subject at hand Lundi you must understand you have an abundant amount of knowledge. That I had to study this or read this from somewhere. Do you really think I could have come up with this on my own? Ok, let's say I did. What logic would I have to be possessed on to come up with this lie? While answering that what reason for? Personal gain, trying to keep alive some dark ages study no one cares about, or could it be I am just being a simpleton like in pervious post from before?
Oh man. I thought I covered all the bases. I guess I will try again here. The only reason people find God's will effective is because the goal of the people is to be righteous. To be righteous you must know right from wrong however the sad part is understanding how it works. You see the wicked may think they resent God however God considers the wicked God's sword hence God is the shield. God protects God's people from that sword. The sword or the wicked are nothing more than a deterent towards those who stray from the pack in the wilderness hence it means those who decide it is more profitable to do wrong doing than right will meet a cruel fate.
God's will is effective rather than ineffective because if it was ineffective, he couldn't protect us? That's blatant question begging that God exists for the purpose of...us...and that's logically incoherent.
Incoherent would imply that it does not add up. How come you figure that it does not? Just curious?
God is also believed by people to be more merciful than in the days of old. So even if you do stray you can always come back to the pack however there are are few ways to exile yourself from the pack for life(which I wish not to discuss). These people tend to suffer more greatly than others. It is unfair however we as the human race must understand we can deal with any type environment regardless of what we are up against. So there is no need to worry about your follow man. A man(and woman) are judged by what they do or say. That in turn determines what or how their individual lifestyle is. Do you meet with great fortune or suffering. That said most people do not care if the rich keep getting richer as it is stated by God. They thrive early like a tree in Lebanon only to be destroyed forever. Overall, people believe God's will is effective simply because they have seen it with their own eyes. (I hope I made sense.)
Not really. The essential answer you gave was a question begging statement based on a self defeating logical incoherence.
I see so my response which did not add up is self defeating as well. How come? So what you are stating is no one's existence should not be to serve another. Ok, answer this then why do people on this timid little planet serve anyone? If man is suppose to be free of belief you should be able to create your own set of rules customized solely for your beliefs. For example, People could say; Oh God does not exist and people could give two craps about man-made law. People will now go on ahead to get drunk beat up midgets. Do whatever the heck they want. So what even if man created a set of rules people would not care. People would say who are you to tell me what to do? Sure phony deterents such as prison, halfway house, and death penalties could combat the would be oppressed individuals however what if they become a career criminal? You do not have to be in the Marine Corp. to be able to do or complete objectives based on complete and utter anarchy. Destruction is like gravity. It is the sole concept of the downfall of civilizations. I always imagined a world where the weak who use to be the strong get oppressed by the strong who use to be the weak.
Overall, I find destruction to be nothing more than creation. I ask myself why can't we as people not evolve more than what we are? People say we are evolving because of technology. The problem is technology is an inanimate object therefore cannot evolve. It's the knowlegde behind the making of that technology that has evolved for better or worse.
And after that you essentially just...kind of...gave a rough outline of god's mercy and justice in christianity. None of which actually answers the question.
Let me get this out of the way now so you cannot make this mistake again. I have iterated that God does not have a gender. You have refered to God as he multiple times. That is an average commoners mistake when people talk of God. I will break it down like this. The "he" you refer to is Jesus Christ which was not his name. Christ is a greek word meaning anointed with oil. Yashua Bin Yosef was his name. Who did a taboo of saying he was God in front of a group of Muslims who threw rocks at him and outcast him from their city. He went to Roman to later preach words that only a false prophet would say only to be took captive by oppressers their also. What he did wrong here was preach words in a city that had a multitude of pagan gods. So when time came to sentence him they falsely accused him and decide to have him made an example out of. They crucified him and as he was being tortured he screamed "Allah" from atop the cross. This should prove he was a false prophet and a false god. How can you claim to be God yet scream aloud Muslim God's name from atop the cross. So he died. Now this is where it gets really interesting. Skip ahead to the present Romans now have christianity as a religion. Does no one but me see a problem here? How can these same roman's establish christianity yet you killed a man for the same teachings you resented. God is looked upon as a joke because of people like the Pope and his supposed partners in crime. They are doing cruel things to children and much more. What I see is an empire that died a long time ago using a pagan religion to cover up their sick habits from the days of a forgotten civilization.
Overall, what I am saying is God does not belong to muslims, jews(who are greeks by the way), or supposed christians. God does not have a gender or form heck even if people knew what God looked like people believe they would be dead by now because anywho look upon God would surely die. Long story short pagan gods have a gender and form. One GOD is enough for some people. So in other words I am not a christian I do not represent no type of religion. Do not care too either.
So I kindly ask that you rephrase your question to me please. So I may answer it in a concise manner...
Thanks
To answer your question of how Romans became Christians, the answer is pretty dam clear. You say Jews and Muslims were originally Greeks right? And you do know that Romans entire society was pretty much modification of the Greeks right? The Romans probably became Christians by something like this:
Constantine: Hmmm its good day isn't it?
Solider: Yes it is sir.
Constantine: Couldn't you believe we won that battle without single death?
Solider: I am in much awe as you sir.
Constantine: I guess those drugs really handy eh?
Soldier: Yes they were sir.
Constantine: But you know Rome is in pretty bad shape. Less and less people are believing in the teachings of the pope. What should we do?
Soldier: May I suggest stealing a religion from the Greeks? We already stole their religion before and wrap it. Not to mention their other culture practices.
Constantine: You are right! We can say that God protected us and help us win and we will begin a new religion, lets call it Christianity, even though it just warp version of an already existing Greek religion, which I think is Jewbusium or was it Musliity well something like that but who cares, they are just Greeks.
Soldier: That's just brilliant sir!
Constantine: Well what expect from your great, phony ass king! Now off to Rome and spread this phony ass religion!
Well there you have. The story of Romans became Christians, and I wasn't being sarcastic in anyway.
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I see what you mean Freaky Green however I said Jews were Greek. I never even remotely stated that Muslims were...Thanks for you input.
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Props for Dedication man... I think you have point though., are atheists really bad? I mean didn't our ancestors believe in something else before foreign invaders teach us otherwise? if the Bible stated that Christianity Began in Jerusalem, then what did the other people around the world believe in?
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sjack wrote...
Props for Dedication man... I think you have point though., are atheists really bad? I mean didn't our ancestors believe in something else before foreign invaders teach us otherwise? if the Bible stated that Christianity Began in Jerusalem, then what did the other people around the world believe in?Literature recommendation. "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong.
It has a few minor errors, but it's a good place to look for your question.
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It is not necessary to understand; it is enough to adore.
The god may be of clay: adore him; he becomes GOD.
We ignore what created us; we adore what we create.
Let us create nothing but GOD!
That which causes us to create is our true father and mother; we create in our own image, which is theirs.
Let us create therefore without fear; for we can create nothing that is not GOD.
-A.C.
The god may be of clay: adore him; he becomes GOD.
We ignore what created us; we adore what we create.
Let us create nothing but GOD!
That which causes us to create is our true father and mother; we create in our own image, which is theirs.
Let us create therefore without fear; for we can create nothing that is not GOD.
-A.C.