Home Defense (force vs. force and litigation)

Would a flash-bang fall under the 'destructive devices' category?

Tell me, what criminal would EVER get their hands on a flash bang? Let alone yourself!

Now for the what if's:

1. The criminal has the flashbang but doesn't do anything with it, same thing as always.

2. He has it in his hands. Threaten and tell him to drop it, just like with a knife.

3. If he's threatening to pull the pin and throw at you, turn around and take cover behind something, hands on ears. If he does throw it's an assault on your health, but not your life. You are free to do whatever is neccesary to bring him down, save for killing or maiming.

4. He's threatening to pummel you, just kick his ass.

YOU have the flashbang.

1. Simple, throw it in front of him, he won't realize it, make sure your ears are covered and eyes are averted, afterwards, knock him onconcious as he can be dangerous in that stunned situation.

That should cover it.
And for the love of cake, don't start on grenades/rockets/nukes :P

I'm not, just saying from a disabling point of view that a flash bang would be effective.

but now i think about it it isn't very practical.

I am finding all this to be very unacceptable to my views. I'd be seriously pissed off to see that my tv is getting snatched away. I'd definitely try to stop him, this is ridiculous.

I cannot find these to be quite acceptable unless the government is willing to purchase things to replace things that was stolen by the petty thieves immediately because I don't want to miss my history channel shows.

Plus, I'm deaf how the frak am I supposed to communicate with the retarded thieves protected by law. I don't think they'll be oh sure willing to stop and wait and talk with me on a notepad. I'm going to use excessive force to stop or chase thief away because its not even convenient for me to even be able to communicate or threaten the thief via voice.

The laws is too idealistic! Don't the lawmakers put themselves in homeowner's place. Maybe we should hire thugs to put them in the situation and see how they response accordingly and make laws on that.

To your first 2 points I mentioned the solution. It is something everyone should have theoretically. In most cases it isn't too expansive and it saves you alot of trouble. It is called house and household insurance. Basically it covers everything from damages caused by hooligans over damage caused by fire etc and oh wonder robbery aswell. So that arguement is about as void as it can be.

Stopping a thief via force by shooting him / injuring him won't change the fact that he intruded into your house and that he will end up in jail once he is caught. However you will have to face a charge for injuring him and can end up in jail aswell, depending on how much you injured him, even longer than the thief. Now think carefully. Are those items that you can get back with insurance really worth ending up in jail for? In my opinion: No they aren't.

If you want security, I mentioned it before, rather get a dog. Every burglar will think twice of pissing of a German shepherd or the like fletching it's teeth, aiming for the throat. And it even can be a nice partner for joggs, sports and is a friend for the family aswell.... what would you want more?

So.... A Huge buff Burglar comes into your house and just takes your stuff... and you have a gun..... you can tell him to stop or you'll shoot but he won't even bother since its illegal on your part to hurt him...? Now... how about the Police? can THEY shoot the unarmed husky burglar? Or get beat up trying to stop him without the gun?

situation in germany: difficult.
i solved the problem my way:
the first round in my pistol is a blank one, i can fire it at a burglar straight away when i see him. if he tries to assault/kill me then and does NOT give up like a smart person would do, i give him some pepper rounds. in the worst case i can still pull my .38 when he's under effect of the pepper, and if i really still need it then my life was endangered enough even for german judges to accept it.
the german law says that as long as the proportion is kept, i can use any weapon to defend myself. that means no shotguns against someone barehanded etc., but if he has a knife and wants to kill me i MAY blow his head off. i may only kill if my health is seriously endangered.

the only trouble is how to get a gun :|
very strict regulations - no full-auto-rifles or SMGs. no softpoints-rounds.

You don't need full-auto...probably make more damage than the burblar, esp in European apts. One well-placed 7.62x39mm round from a semi AK or a couple hits with 5.56 NATO will put him out of commission. Besides, same ruls pretty much in the US, no automatic weps (though there are legal ways...)

What I don't get are restrictions on hollow-points. They are specifically designed with self-defense in mind; they inflict maximum wounding and ensure that there is no over-penetration [and thus accidental wounding/killing of innocent bystanders. If a guy survives shrapnel blossoming in his gut...well...Captain Superman! I do understand the hazard presented to the dock pulling the bullet out...but I gotta say, when do docs pull the bullet out with bare fingers? My mom (RN) says that (at least American) doctors never do it by hand, they always use forceps. Different in Europe?

well, a '47 doesn't fit under my pillow. also, pistols are better inside, they're faster, smaller. got a Beretta M92 and a S&W 637, that's more than enough against the kind of burglar u find in germany. in the worst case they were in the kitchen first and found your biggest knife. or a baseball bat.
only about 2 in 1000 have firearms.(people, not burglars)

it's not only "no fullauto", it's "no carbines with more than 5+1 shots"
also .45 ACP is very difficult to get, even though they are lovely... but you DO get .44 magnum.
worst new law: the authorities can search your house and check if your guns are locked away safely, if not, you loose them. bye bye, shotgun under the bed...

I would like to know how our points differ... You seem to have said what I did, however naturally rephrased.
That said, happy we could come to an agreement, for the time being anyway.



To your first point:
That is why I think the LAW should be changed, NOT our first reaction to protecting our home and valuables.
Yes, excessive force should not be used IF AVOIDABLE, but it's not like you can just get your feet wet to see if the water is ideal temperature before going into a situation like that. Most people will be scared and/or angry at the situation. Thus making them just and uncountable for their actions as any excuse the theif has.

Your second point would work, agreed. However that is assuming everyone can get a dog, let alone a big dog.
A dog is a huge amount of work, even a well trained one. Most apartments do not allow dogs. And a lot of people are allergic to dogs. So are these people just out of luck and should hope for the best in the event of a burglary?
And even the people who can get a dog. That just means we should hinder ourselves ALL of the time, simply to avoid harming an intruder IN THE EVENT one ever comes along?
I just can't agree with that. It's not you I don't agree with, it's that specific law.

@ Xil

If you can't get a dog for whatever reason, get a homocidal rabbit or something.

Back to seriousness, your making it sound like hundreds of millions have those troubles and i am going to argue back.

First of all, not nearly enough people are seriously allergic enough to not be able to stand dogs to be said like that.
Secondly, wouldn't you agree that living in an appartment not only makes your place less attractive to rob, but also extremely unpractical to rob?
Whatya gonna do? Grab that tv and haul it down the stairs? Or put it in the elevator and say hi to the old man also stepping on it?

Heh, that's of course assuming it's an apartment with stairs.
Even with stairs, Apartments are WONDERFUL places to rob. Rows and rows of extremely weakly secured homes. Your pretty much guaranteed that it will not have a security system, nor dog for that matter. The locks are shit, and all very similar. That, in a nutshell, is a great hist area.
Watch for a few people coming and going, but really now... I doubt many would even pay notice if it's an intelligent thief using common sense and plays it cool.

Even if your not allergic to a dog, my point stands. If you don't have a dog, I'm just going to assume you have a reason for not owning a dog. They are expensive, require attention perhaps someone who works all day cannot give, or you simply don't want one. I say that is reason enough.
So, again, we are forcing these people to get something they have no motivation to get simply to do something they could do themselves: protect their home. WITH or WITHOUT physical force.

Although, A feral rabbit I would accept as a valid home defense measure So long as it has big, sharp, pointy teeth.

Aha, it seems you are skilled in laying open the weaknesses in my arguements.
Generally i assume an apartment of sorts has stairs, actually, they HAVE to have 2 staircases when it goes above 4 story's high. Fire anyone? With just an elevator that kinda goes against the no elevator protocol, and if by some way the fire escape (staircase 1) was blocked... Well, i don't think alot of people will want to build such a building and have a fight with the government and 50.000 humanitairian company's. And yes, sorry about the spelling back there, blame the coffeeless evening.

They are not easy places to rob, here. Because here my friend, the houses are locked tight, there is a standard chain on the door next to the lock and most people buy additional locks.

Your reasoning regarding the dog is logic and flawless, except for one, mayby two things.

"So, again, we are forcing these people to get something they have no motivation to get simply to do something they could do themselves: protect their home. WITH or WITHOUT physical force."

Sorry, who's forcing who? Feel free to take your window out for all i care. BESIDES, there are alot of other measures you can take, more locks, stronger door, thicker windows, mayby even an unattached webcam! I don't think any of these things really need alot of care for that matter.

And yeh, big sharp pointy teeth, mayby even a spiky tail :D

Wonderful now I have to pay money to insurance company for something that might never happen if I'm lucky.

And secondly, I'm very terrible with pets, I do not like dogs very much at all.. Nor willing to spend time maintaining the pet. Seems like moving to the moon is best est next option with new retarded laws. We should be allowed to defend our property with force.

Wait, so you're basically saying you want to be protected against people invading your home without getting a dog nor an insurance...

Did you even read the thread? Dude, READ MAN!

READ.

I forget how this thread started...

Is it legal to beat them into submission if they are in danger of causing harm to you and/or your family?
Or can you just not shoot them for it...

I'm kinda surprised this thread has lasted as long as it has. I'll just put my method I will use if somebody breaks into my house. If the intruder is here to steal I will call the police and sneak outside, where I will render their transportation useless. If they are here to kill, I will shoot the intruder's knees after calling the police. He can crawl only so far.

lol, I do like that ending statement.

Why do I get the feeling that your place is booby trapped? Open a door and end up with a scrotum full of shrapnel.

Haha, good one. I live in a "questionable" area and living here has made me somewhat paranoid. Do not worry, if I ever invite you over I'll tell my neighbor to move his meth lab so we don't die in a fiery explosion :). But seriously, my house is not a fort and I had to draw up some scenarios and how I would survive them.