Is free will just an illusion?

Well, the point was that if you don't and you cannot create your own brain micro structure or your neurophysiology, and we know scientifically that these are responsible of creating our conscious thoughts, from where does our supposed freewill manifests if our consciousness is created by variables we don't have any control over.

Everything you think and say to yourself inside your mind, every decision and struggle you have in your mind is created by your brain, not by your conscious, because your conscious is created by that same brain.




Here is one link: http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide

Our brain creates our conscious awareness, our decisions and our thoughts. Our unconsciousness knows everything before your consciousness does, so the notion that we have free will in between this interval doesn't make sense, because how can you be free minded without being consciously aware of your decision?




Don't really understand what you mean by with that last sentence. What do you mean by "work off a cold boot as far as thoughts are concerned"?

I believe that humans have free will in the sense that there isn't some kind of predestination that determines our actions. As to our subconscious making decisions for us based off of the environment and situations that we're in... that sounds a bit like free will, doesn't it?

Yeah, i don't believe or think that our lives have been decided long ago, that what ever happens to us, it was destiny or some other predetermined bullshit thing. No, we are biological machines that act and live based on multitude of variables.




No, not really, i mean that is a pretty loose meaning for the word 'freewill'. I think what the majority of people mean when they talk about freewill, they are talking about the capability to make their own conscious decisions about everything and all the time. It means you are in control of your thoughts and decisions. It means you have the freedom to choose what you do.

If anything, the meaning of subconscious precisely suggests the opposite of freewill. We are not in control of it, it is making decision for us without our conscious consent. I wouldn't call that freedom of will, would you?

Actually, I would We do have the freedom to choose what we're going to do. In the very link you cited, I can quote this:


Our subconscious is very much a part of us, showing us what we want to do. The conscious mind just realizes that.

It's also worth noting that the study was only about which handle this guy would squeeze. The subconscious can't predict everything about your environment. In addition to that, the subconscious and the conscious are linked-- one can't act independently of the other without its consent. It's just how our brains work, and what makes us, well, us.

I stand by the assertion that we do have free will.

Conscious mind is just the peak of a huge mountain of brain activity. What ever it is you perceive to think, to do and to like or dislike, our unconscious mind is aware of it, because our brain is the one that creates it, that is what makes it aware to our conscious mind. Simply put, freedom of will is an illusion.




Can't predict everything? The only reason we even are aware consciously about our environment is because how our brain interprets the information our five senses sends to it. It is literally impossible to be consciously aware of something that your subconscious or unconscious wasn't. Without your physical brain processing this information for you and then creating your consciousness for you, you wouldn't even be self aware.

What makes us us is our brain, everything we perceive to be ones self is the product of our brain activity, our brain interacting with the world, with environment, with experiences. Everything about everybody is the sum of different variables we do not have any control over what so ever.

If freedom of will is an illusion and nobody has experienced the real thing, then who are we to say that we don't have freedom of will? It's the Matrix scenario. If we're trapped in a simulation that is indistinguishable from real life and we're unable to tell, does it matter? If I eat a meat substitute that is indistinguishable from the real thing, does it matter to me, personally?

I think not.

Wow, the reasonableness of this discussion just went right out the window, it almost sounds like you agree with me, but you just want to argue about labels or what words mean.

The reason why we can say freedom of will is an illusion is because we consciously understand what the concept of freedom of will is, and fyi it is not an experience that we simply haven't felt (or maybe you have a different meaning for the word than the rest of us, idk). It could very well be that freedom of will doesn't exist.

I'm afraid I don't understand how having your own brain decide that you're going to do something isn't free will, but I'll leave it at that.

Either you don't understand or intentionally miss the point, it sounds like you don't even know what freedom of will means or at least you don't understand what we have been discussing here or you have your own weird different meanings.

I guess it's both, neither an illusion nor a reality.

It's a reality because everyone can choose what to do as they see fit.

It's an illusion because, to counter boundless freedom, and with that, what we define as 'crime' and other attempts to destabilize our personal harmony, we made rules and laws to follow. Basically, we imposed limitations upon ourselves so we can avoid (when possible) damaging ourselves - yet at the same time, we will never be able to truly live at our fullest.

It's also an illusion because, technically, an average person does not have free will, their life is partially determined by how society demands they will act to be accepted by the community - a successful student or worker will face less problems than a recluse or a murderer.

Of course, this is what I think.

Ideation is right Coconut. You are the one who is not understanding.

Your misconception comes from an error in your definition. Not of "Free" or "Will" but of "Self".

Any definition of "Free Will" you can cook up will include some notion of "Self". I guess if you torture your definitions enough you can decompose "Self" into "Same" and "Agent" but the point remains.

Ideation question is, How is the collection of molecules that make up your body "not yourself"? How is the collection of cells that make up your body "not you"? How are the behaviors of the neuronal network that make up your brain "not your" behaviors? How are the intentions of your thought patterns, ideas and drives "not yours"?

How is your body, your drives and ideas, your knowledge and convictions, and every single thing that makes up yourself not "yourself" so that you can claim that the behavior of this entity is "not yours"?

If you are not yourself then WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU?

Your insistence that your own will is not yours assumes that there is a separate "you" other than what we all accept to be you.

Which is a dualist fantasy.

Moreover, who cares at this point? If --for instance-- that "collection of things that people consider you but aren't *really* you" misbehave. Then that collection of molecules, that arrangement of cells, that body, and the culture and personality it encases will get punished, and no amount of protest that your actions aren't really "your" own will matter. Because at the end of the day we don't deal with this fictional "you" that isn't yourself. We deal with the real you that exists in front of us.

So free will is certainly real, it's the "you" that isn't you which is a fantasy.

Sorry, but you are as confused as the other kiddo, not only misunderstanding my point, but also misunderstanding what i am talking about.




See, here is where you drive your car off the bridge.

I have never claimed that our consciousness is just a some kind of spectator inside a living being and we can merely witness as the human body does as it pleases. I have never claimed that the actions we perform, the words we say, the thoughts we think, the feelings we feel are not us or ones self. Of coarse they are. There is only one living being with one brain with the ability to be consciously aware of its own life. Regardless of freedom of will, self identity still exists, everything you do and say and think and feel, that is you, i have never claimed otherwise, but for some reason you kiddos don't understand that. (Because clearly you guys don't understand what we are talking about when we are talking about freedom of will).

All i am saying, is that every single action you do, every single word you say, every single thought you have inside your head, all those things you presumably have control over consciously (<- freedom of will) you actually do not, because all those things i listed are created by our brain, which on the other hand is influenced by many and different variables which you do not have any control over what so ever.




Having no freedom of will does not assume that, only you do because like i said, you guys are misunderstanding the point. The very notion of 'your own will' is created by our brains, by all the things i have been saying in the previous posts. Here comes the point in crystal clearness: 'Your own will' is not yours. It is created by the living organisms brain activity that of which you are. Meaning that the living organisms (<-living organism being you) organ (<-brain) creates self-awareness and self-awareness gives us the feeling of will power.

But everything you presumably do with that will power, we objectively know 'using' that will power is preceded by events in your nervous system of which you are not aware, that you didn't create. You are not responsible for experiences that changed the micro structure of your brain to its current form. You haven't created your neurophysiology and yet that neurophysiology is responsible for every single conscious thought you are going to have.




So naive and so stupid.

If we accepted the notion that we do not have freedom of will, we could build a better society around it. We would better understand why certain people become pedophiles who rape children, we would better understand why certain people are psychopaths and enjoy murdering other people. We would better understand everybody, we would better understand human behavior.

Of coarse horrible actions and crimes should be punished and they will be, but we would understand that maybe the pedophile didn't rape those children because he chose to do so by using his freedom of will, but instead was fucking unlucky by being born as a person who had the micro structured brain that enjoyed hurting and killing children even with the deterrents of jail and hatred of whole society.

That being just one example.




Sorry to break it to you, but naaaah, it's not.

Your subconscious brain is making you write silly things and be confused with reality.

Here you are presenting you brain as something that is not you:



Here you claim that your brain activity is different from yourself:



Here you claim that a person is not what he is:



Here you claim my actions are not my own but my brain's:



That is the problem that you (pretend?) not to see.

My, and Ideation's point is that there is no difference between saying:

a) "You have a brain micro structured so to enjoy hurting and killing children."

and

b) "You enjoy hurting and killing children."

(a) is a more detailed statement than (b) but both are refering to the same thing. You deny the identity realtion between agents and their constituent parts.

Then you deny you make this distinction.

Then you use the distinction you just denied to claim that free will is an illusion.

Honestly at this point I don't think you are actually interested in discussion. You are just seeking for opportunities to call people stupid. Either because you really like insulting people or you are just trying to spite people.

Running with hadnochoice's post, if you've got a brain that is doing these things, claiming "Well, it was my brain, not me!" is meaningless. In that case, we just need to jail your brain, which means jailing you, which is what people already do in the first place.

The concept of 'you' is equal to 'your brain'.




The concept of 'yourself' is equal to 'your brain activity'.




The concept of 'person is x' is equal to 'his/her brain is x'




'Your actions' are equal to 'your brains actions'
because your brain creates your actions.




The actual problem is still the same, that of which you either pretend not to understand my point, or you simply don't comprehend it, or you have some alternative definitions for words which nobody else is aware of.




So i was correct, you two are giving to real concepts your own definitions which are naive and simply wrong.

If you acknowledge that (a) is the same as (b), you are admitting that there is no freedom of will, that free will is an illusion.




I simply have no idea what the hell you are talking about.




You already admitted that you agree with me, but then you drove off the cliff and started rampaging about nonsense which i don't understand.

I seriously don't have a clue of what the hell you are talking about here.




I am interested in discussion, that is what we are doing here, we are discussing. I am just passionate about the things i involve myself into, i am sorry if you cannot handle a discussion in which you are proven wrong and if you cannot handle that then don't put out your opinions and then mischaracterize the other party.




Once again, i have never claimed that, you are pulling shit out of your ass at this point, because for the third time, you either pretend not to understand my point, you actually don't comprehend it, or you have given yourself some complete different definitions for concepts from what they actually are.

The whole point here is that your brain is not different from you, you are your brain, you do not have a body, you are a body.

I mean seriously i doubt you two even read my posts, you two just want to respond for some reason.

Coconutt, I think it's a thing of mere definition.

What is free will?

Why then, free will doesn't exists and is just an illusion?

Your answer (at least how I'm understanding it) is that free will is a logic, thought-out decision without external influence that must come from conscience alone (because subconscience in this case, is an external influence, for it's non-logical nature). Then, considering conscience is always being bombardment by subconscience, the fact of "without external influence" is impossible and thus, for you, free will doesn't exists.

Change the definition of free will itself, and the second answer changes. At least for me (and it looks likes for the vast majority here), subconscience is not needed to be only logic-based. It's a mere fact of how you want to define it. You may do well, though, in not calling others stupid and talking so harsh, because you aren't expressing clearly in the first place.

Well, i don't think so, because when you change the definition, you are also changing the subject matter.





Free will doesn't necessarily mean that it is logical, and i don't know what you mean by subconscious having non-logical nature.









Changing the definition changes the subject.




I don't understand what you mean by "subconsciousness is not needed to be only logic-based". And definitions do matter, i mean come on, i have been discussing with two different people here who seem to have a different definition than i have, and as a result we are getting no where.

"subconsciousness is not needed to be only logic-based" was my error, sorry, I meant "free will" rather than subconsciousness.

Free will is an illusion or not depends on your view and yours alone.