Is Prison Truly Just?
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*Ampersand* wrote...
Maxiart wrote...
*Ampersand* wrote...
The difference between Justice and revenge is that Justice is socially accepted form of revenge. Say the man who killed your mom is put to prison, everyone will nod and agree of the man's misfortune inside the cell. That way, you get your revenge morally right because it's acceptable by law and the society.
In revenge, however, you can find the Justice for your mom-but not for yourself. If you killed the man who killed your mom, what difference are you compared with the murderer?
There you go.
So thats it, for you? He kills your mother, he can get by with only some years in a cell? Can you truly call that justice? To me, killing is, by far, the worst thing a human can do. We all only get one chance at life. Someone who takes another's chance, doesn't deserve his own.
And what will you do? You'll Kill him?
I'm good with Imprisonment. If I make revenge on my own, it doesn't make me any different with the murderer.
I would, unless I knew he'd get the death sentence. You see, killing him would not make me the same as him, because by his willful killing of someone, he has lost his right to live. People who kill innocent people are nothing but animals, and like animals, they need to be put down.
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Maxiart wrote...
*Ampersand* wrote...
Maxiart wrote...
*Ampersand* wrote...
The difference between Justice and revenge is that Justice is socially accepted form of revenge. Say the man who killed your mom is put to prison, everyone will nod and agree of the man's misfortune inside the cell. That way, you get your revenge morally right because it's acceptable by law and the society.
In revenge, however, you can find the Justice for your mom-but not for yourself. If you killed the man who killed your mom, what difference are you compared with the murderer?
There you go.
So thats it, for you? He kills your mother, he can get by with only some years in a cell? Can you truly call that justice? To me, killing is, by far, the worst thing a human can do. We all only get one chance at life. Someone who takes another's chance, doesn't deserve his own.
And what will you do? You'll Kill him?
I'm good with Imprisonment. If I make revenge on my own, it doesn't make me any different with the murderer.
I would, unless I knew he'd get the death sentence. You see, killing him would not make me the same as him, because by his willful killing of someone, he has lost his right to live. People who kill innocent people are nothing but animals, and like animals, they need to be put down.
And soon after, someone from their family will kill you. Then your brother (assuming you have) will kill the one who killed you. Then someone from their clan will kill your brother, and soon your clans will be killing each other until everyone is bleeding to death.
There's no Justice in that. Only hatred and pain that will soon lead to death, no matter who's right or wrong.
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And thats why it should be the system that condemns the killer, to avoid a senseless potential cycle of death.
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Maxiart wrote...
BigLundi wrote...
@ Maxiart Wow...so umm...I suppose you support the death penalty huh? >.>
I don't believe someone who has killed another person for selfish reasons should be allowed to go on living. What are a paltry number of prison years compared to a person's life? Even if they are convicted for life, there is still the possibility of parole after time has passed, and even if there is not, there is still hope. Though limited, they can find happiness.
But the person killed can only rot.
Ok, well first I'd like to point out they're actually more likely to be exonerated with the death penalty, according to statistics.
Secondly, I'd like to point out that the people who suffer from having their loved one killed don't actually gain any happiness from seeing their murderer killed, or knowing their murderer is killed. This isn't all the time, but it's about 50/50 according to polls in California, and the fact that people who are murder victim family members actively DO speak out against the death penalty.
So when you say, "Though limited, they can find happiness." I'm guessing you're saying, "The murderer could theoretically find happiness after a life sentence, and FUCK THAT!"
Well, what if they get reformed? Or don't you believe that's possible? And why are you appointing yourself judge jury and executioner and saying "If person X does action Y for reason Z, they no longer are allowed to be happy. Ever. And if possible, should die as soon as they can."
I mean it's probably a good thing you're not a judge laws because wrongful accusations do happen, and it would suck to actually end up being innocent after getting done in YOUR court.
"The person killed can only rot" So? They're not suffering, and they're not happy, they're just dead. And killing the killer doesn't bring them back, or make them happy, or bring them peace. So besides the grieving family, who I empathize with, why should that, in any way, matter?
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Oh, but its not for the sake of vengeance that killers should be put to death. In a way, its not for the sake of the family, but to repay for the crime of taking another's life. Perhaps the victim's family would not derive any closure or happiness from the fact, but justice would still be served, as it is served by a thief being sent to jail. Since a stolen item can be returned or repaid, jail can serve as an appropriate temporal punishment. But nothing can return or repay for an extinguished life. No measure of 'feeling bad' or 'changing' will bring the person killed back. Thus, prison works imperfectly in this case, because the killer has not really paid for what he has done.
I do believe people can be reformed. But that does not wash away what they did. In fact, it can be quite a convenient way out of it. "Oh, I reformed, I am so sorry for everything! Ok, I'll go my way now, bye bye~"
Also, as I've said, I feel this way about killing because life is the one thing that, no matter how much you try, you cannot just fix into being again. For every other crime, be it thievery or molestation, a possibility exists for the victim to regain what is lost. It doesn't always happen, but it can, the victim still has possibilities. Not so if they are killed.
Yes, I am aware of the possibilities of wrongful conviction, and its probably the only thing that gives me pause. I believe that perhaps, provisions could be made to minimize such possibilities.
And finally, 'why does it matter?' Because they are not dead by their own choice. Just like people don't get stolen from by their own choice, and send those who steal from them to jail. The difference is that stolen goods can be returned or re-acquired, but life simply cannot be.
I do believe people can be reformed. But that does not wash away what they did. In fact, it can be quite a convenient way out of it. "Oh, I reformed, I am so sorry for everything! Ok, I'll go my way now, bye bye~"
Also, as I've said, I feel this way about killing because life is the one thing that, no matter how much you try, you cannot just fix into being again. For every other crime, be it thievery or molestation, a possibility exists for the victim to regain what is lost. It doesn't always happen, but it can, the victim still has possibilities. Not so if they are killed.
Yes, I am aware of the possibilities of wrongful conviction, and its probably the only thing that gives me pause. I believe that perhaps, provisions could be made to minimize such possibilities.
And finally, 'why does it matter?' Because they are not dead by their own choice. Just like people don't get stolen from by their own choice, and send those who steal from them to jail. The difference is that stolen goods can be returned or re-acquired, but life simply cannot be.
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Maxiart wrote...
Oh, but its not for the sake of vengeance that killers should be put to death. In a way, its not for the sake of the family, but to repay for the crime of taking another's life.But...repay who? That's the problem. And does the person being repaid WANT to have this payment?
Perhaps the victim's family would not derive any closure or happiness from the fact, but justice would still be served, as it is served by a thief being sent to jail. Since a stolen item can be returned or repaid, jail can serve as an appropriate temporal punishment. But nothing can return or repay for an extinguished life.
2 things.
1. If nothing can return or repay for an extinguished life...then neither would killing the person who did the killing.
2. Imagine for a moment that someone stole pills from someone's house in the middle of the night because...I dunno, they like drugs. Now say the home owner dies the next day because those pills weren't in his/her hands.
Are you going to jail the guy for stealing or murder? Do you take into account that he's just a drug addict? That he didn't know the life would end? Or should he be held responsible for the death of the person. If not, why not? Your method of justice is overly simplistic, it raises more questions.
No measure of 'feeling bad' or 'changing' will bring the person killed back. Thus, prison works imperfectly in this case, because the killer has not really paid for what he has done.
And no method of punishment will bring them back either, nor necessarily bring any sort of closure to anyone. And killing him doesn't actually 'pay' anyone. You're sort of constructing an anthropomorphism of justice. IT's less like what justice is and how it's secular manner in which it's carried out in the US and more like a more spiritual metaphysical belief of Karma.
I do believe people can be reformed. But that does not wash away what they did. In fact, it can be quite a convenient way out of it. "Oh, I reformed, I am so sorry for everything! Ok, I'll go my way now, bye bye~"
And if they really are, then what? You're saying, "I don't care, you must die anyway." And don't you think that's showing just as much compassion and empathy as the murderer did ion which you're punishing him?
Also, as I've said, I feel this way about killing because life is the one thing that, no matter how much you try, you cannot just fix into being again. For every other crime, be it thievery or molestation, a possibility exists for the victim to regain what is lost. It doesn't always happen, but it can, the victim still has possibilities. Not so if they are killed.
No, you're wrong on this.
With molestation, innocence is taken away, and while innocence is an abstract thing, it's still taken away forever when one is molested. That innocence is gone, and it's never coming back. Besides, I actually feel rape and molestation and all those kinds of crimes to be WORSE than murder, as far as consequences for actions and the status of the victim goes. At least when you're dead, the suffering is done and over with. If you're raped or molested, you're forced to live with that until the day you die, and to ME, that's worse.
Yes, I am aware of the possibilities of wrongful conviction, and its probably the only thing that gives me pause. I believe that perhaps, provisions could be made to minimize such possibilities.
And finally, 'why does it matter?' Because they are not dead by their own choice. Just like people don't get stolen from by their own choice, and send those who steal from them to jail. The difference is that stolen goods can be returned or re-acquired, but life simply cannot be.
And finally, 'why does it matter?' Because they are not dead by their own choice. Just like people don't get stolen from by their own choice, and send those who steal from them to jail. The difference is that stolen goods can be returned or re-acquired, but life simply cannot be.
And as I've explained already, the fact that the victim's life cannot be restored doesn't justify taking yet another life as some sort of abstract 'repayment' to nobody in particular.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
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Maxiart wrote...
Oh, but its not for the sake of vengeance that killers should be put to death. In a way, its not for the sake of the family, but to repay for the crime of taking another's life. Perhaps the victim's family would not derive any closure or happiness from the fact, but justice would still be served, as it is served by a thief being sent to jail. Since a stolen item can be returned or repaid, jail can serve as an appropriate temporal punishment. But nothing can return or repay for an extinguished life. No measure of 'feeling bad' or 'changing' will bring the person killed back. Thus, prison works imperfectly in this case, because the killer has not really paid for what he has done.I do believe people can be reformed. But that does not wash away what they did. In fact, it can be quite a convenient way out of it. "Oh, I reformed, I am so sorry for everything! Ok, I'll go my way now, bye bye~"
Also, as I've said, I feel this way about killing because life is the one thing that, no matter how much you try, you cannot just fix into being again. For every other crime, be it thievery or molestation, a possibility exists for the victim to regain what is lost. It doesn't always happen, but it can, the victim still has possibilities. Not so if they are killed.
Yes, I am aware of the possibilities of wrongful conviction, and its probably the only thing that gives me pause. I believe that perhaps, provisions could be made to minimize such possibilities.
And finally, 'why does it matter?' Because they are not dead by their own choice. Just like people don't get stolen from by their own choice, and send those who steal from them to jail. The difference is that stolen goods can be returned or re-acquired, but life simply cannot be.
Hmmmm so you are saying that killing is wrong, but have you ever ask yourself this, "Is killing truly wrong." Think about, if killing is wrong then why does it happens on regular basics? According to definition of wrong it means that something isn't correct, true, or right, but if killing is wrong that would mean you saying that the universe is wrong as well, because what ever happens in this world is ultimately faithed to happen. So saying like killing is wrong is the same as saying that their faith is wrong and saying their faith is wrong is the same as saying the universe is wrong since the forces of the universe is what pick the faiths of all living beings, humans included.
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Freaky Green wrote...
Hmmmm so you are saying that killing is wrong, but have you ever ask yourself this, "Is killing truly wrong." Think about, if killing is wrong then why does it happens on regular basics? According to definition of wrong it means that something isn't correct, true, or right, but if killing is wrong that would mean you saying that the universe is wrong as well, because what ever happens in this world is ultimately faithed to happen. So saying like killing is wrong is the same as saying that their faith is wrong and saying their faith is wrong is the same as saying the universe is wrong since the forces of the universe is what pick the faiths of all living beings, humans included.
Man, you go into a whole another tangent. I don't believe in 'forces of the universe', nor do I believe in fate. But by your logic, then the universe is already wrong because we already punish other crimes which happen on a regular basis.
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Maxiart wrote...
Man, you go into a whole another tangent. I don't believe in 'forces of the universe', nor do I believe in fate. But by your logic, then the universe is already wrong because we already punish other crimes which happen on a regular basis.
I've come to the conclusion Freaky Green is one of those kinds of guys that's just now starting to understand what it means to have an opinion...and thinks he knows things he clearly doesn't.
It's not his fault, happened to me too. I expect within a year or two he'll get better. Still, I'd prefer you respond to MY post instead of his :P
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BigLundi wrote...
Maxiart wrote...
Man, you go into a whole another tangent. I don't believe in 'forces of the universe', nor do I believe in fate. But by your logic, then the universe is already wrong because we already punish other crimes which happen on a regular basis.
I've come to the conclusion Freaky Green is one of those kinds of guys that's just now starting to understand what it means to have an opinion...and thinks he knows things he clearly doesn't.
It's not his fault, happened to me too. I expect within a year or two he'll get better. Still, I'd prefer you respond to MY post instead of his :P
I will, I will. Its just that his was easier to respond to :D
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BigLundi wrote...
Maxiart wrote...
Man, you go into a whole another tangent. I don't believe in 'forces of the universe', nor do I believe in fate. But by your logic, then the universe is already wrong because we already punish other crimes which happen on a regular basis.
I've come to the conclusion Freaky Green is one of those kinds of guys that's just now starting to understand what it means to have an opinion...and thinks he knows things he clearly doesn't.
It's not his fault, happened to me too. I expect within a year or two he'll get better. Still, I'd prefer you respond to MY post instead of his :P
Hmmmm better you say? What do you mean by that? And what do you mean by I know things that I clearly don't? I simply giving you assumptions that are base on logic, so I am not really giving you an opinion.
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Maxiart wrote...
Freaky Green wrote...
Hmmmm so you are saying that killing is wrong, but have you ever ask yourself this, "Is killing truly wrong." Think about, if killing is wrong then why does it happens on regular basics? According to definition of wrong it means that something isn't correct, true, or right, but if killing is wrong that would mean you saying that the universe is wrong as well, because what ever happens in this world is ultimately faithed to happen. So saying like killing is wrong is the same as saying that their faith is wrong and saying their faith is wrong is the same as saying the universe is wrong since the forces of the universe is what pick the faiths of all living beings, humans included.
Man, you go into a whole another tangent. I don't believe in 'forces of the universe', nor do I believe in fate. But by your logic, then the universe is already wrong because we already punish other crimes which happen on a regular basis.
Not really since we are talking about justice which means, in broadest terms, righting a wrong and simply question what is wrong, and I was getting at " who are you to say the the flow of the universe is wrong" And by the way when I say force I really meant the flow of energy, particularly yin yang and flow of space-time, and actual forces- gravity, magnetic, weak force, and strong force-
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Well it depends on what that individual gets sentenced with be it life or the death penalty.
If its life they will suffer greatly if its death penalty they get to live the life. Good food and hardly have to do a days work ever again depending on how that prison system in state, city, or county may work.
In the end if you get life and have to deal with the same sex tryin to turn you out, kill you, or beat you on a daily basis. May I offer this one tip. Get yo self in solitary confinement as fast as possibly. Look for the meanest, tuffest, biggest sonofabeeyotch you can find and fight them. Once these savages see you are crazy enough to fight the unbeatable you will be looked at as a crazy mofo.
Alas, prisons are SUPPOSE to be a correctional facility...
How can they be if they don't correct shit is what I ask?
Wise Words: Deterents are like detergents. One was suppose to get rid of violence but didn't and one is suppose to get rid filth but didn't...
If its life they will suffer greatly if its death penalty they get to live the life. Good food and hardly have to do a days work ever again depending on how that prison system in state, city, or county may work.
In the end if you get life and have to deal with the same sex tryin to turn you out, kill you, or beat you on a daily basis. May I offer this one tip. Get yo self in solitary confinement as fast as possibly. Look for the meanest, tuffest, biggest sonofabeeyotch you can find and fight them. Once these savages see you are crazy enough to fight the unbeatable you will be looked at as a crazy mofo.
Alas, prisons are SUPPOSE to be a correctional facility...
How can they be if they don't correct shit is what I ask?
Wise Words: Deterents are like detergents. One was suppose to get rid of violence but didn't and one is suppose to get rid filth but didn't...
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Freaky Green wrote...
BigLundi wrote...
Maxiart wrote...
Man, you go into a whole another tangent. I don't believe in 'forces of the universe', nor do I believe in fate. But by your logic, then the universe is already wrong because we already punish other crimes which happen on a regular basis.
I've come to the conclusion Freaky Green is one of those kinds of guys that's just now starting to understand what it means to have an opinion...and thinks he knows things he clearly doesn't.
It's not his fault, happened to me too. I expect within a year or two he'll get better. Still, I'd prefer you respond to MY post instead of his :P
Hmmmm better you say? What do you mean by that? And what do you mean by I know things that I clearly don't? I simply giving you assumptions that are base on logic, so I am not really giving you an opinion.
I can tell you don't know what you're talking about because you equivocated right and wrong in reference to truth claims and right and wrong in reference to morality.
They're not the same thing...but you just sort of...said they were.
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BigLundi wrote...
Freaky Green wrote...
BigLundi wrote...
Maxiart wrote...
Man, you go into a whole another tangent. I don't believe in 'forces of the universe', nor do I believe in fate. But by your logic, then the universe is already wrong because we already punish other crimes which happen on a regular basis.
I've come to the conclusion Freaky Green is one of those kinds of guys that's just now starting to understand what it means to have an opinion...and thinks he knows things he clearly doesn't.
It's not his fault, happened to me too. I expect within a year or two he'll get better. Still, I'd prefer you respond to MY post instead of his :P
Hmmmm better you say? What do you mean by that? And what do you mean by I know things that I clearly don't? I simply giving you assumptions that are base on logic, so I am not really giving you an opinion.
I can tell you don't know what you're talking about because you equivocated right and wrong in reference to truth claims and right and wrong in reference to morality.
They're not the same thing...but you just sort of...said they were.
Hmmm I can see how someone reading that would get confuse, but I was applying that right and wrong in the sense of truth & morality are closely related to almost to the point of two sides of same coin.
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Freaky Green wrote...
Hmmm I can see how someone reading that would get confuse, but I was applying that right and wrong in the sense of truth & morality are closely related to almost to the point of two sides of same coin.
But they're not. So...yeah.
Whether or not it's right to defend yourself violently against a violent attacker is not at all near the same whether or not it's right that 2+2=4.
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guammastermind671
Da RL Lurker at FAKKU
No its best if you get even yourself, than going to prison. Some people won't learn till they die...enough said.
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BigLundi wrote...
Freaky Green wrote...
Hmmm I can see how someone reading that would get confuse, but I was applying that right and wrong in the sense of truth & morality are closely related to almost to the point of two sides of same coin.
But they're not. So...yeah.
Whether or not it's right to defend yourself violently against a violent attacker is not at all near the same whether or not it's right that 2+2=4.
I understand whats going here. Apparently Iam the only here that is thinking with numbers which exlain why you seem to quite understand my thinking.
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hmmmmmmmmm I'm pondering something... Isn't prison used for rehabilitation? And I'm pretty sure it's revenge and justice.
