Mind Body Dualism
Do you accept Mind Body Duality?
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Stenta wrote...
Legendary_Dollci wrote...
Never said I never said...Legendary_Dollci wrote...
Whoever said science can't prove X, Y and Z? ME?Anyhow. Lets go over mind and body dualism. It's a very old concept, rather outdated.
First off, what's referred to as the "mind" does not refer to the brain. Rather, it refers to the soul.
The idea is that the body is a vessel for the soul, and the soul looks out into the physical world.
The whole notion is another attempt at Scholasticism, the whole theory relies mainly on the Christian religion, and it has not been improved to include brain functions.
Although BigLundi has been posting his posts everything in a scientific matter..
don't worry Muslims believe in the same manner as well that the body is just a vessel and we have a soul....
Like I said.... some things are pretty much impossible to explain about the persons soul... That's why I refer the soul or the "spirit" as a high level thing because scientists find it impossible to prove its existence nor can they find a trace of evidence regarding a persons soul...
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FinalBoss
#levelupyourgrind
I believe that the mind is an invisible force of energy that flows through the body. The brain is the engine, the mind is the fuel, and the rest of the body functions in response to the chemistry between the two (engine and fuel). When the fuel gets spent, the engine and the rest of the body goes into the decomposing stage. Or maybe it is the mind that uses up the body's endurance, and it gradually decomposes via aging (while the mind is infinite and transfers from one host to another starting out as sperm). The mind by itself serves no purpose but to allow the body to perceive and think of the stimuli around it via the brain. This is a bad analogy, but I can only try to understand the concept of dualism. In fact, as a religious person, I tend to replace the word "mind" with "soul".
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FinalBoss wrote...
I believe that the mind is an invisible force of energy that flows through the body. The brain is the engine, the mind is the fuel, and the rest of the body functions in response to the chemistry between the two (engine and fuel). When the fuel gets spent, the engine and the rest of the body goes into the decomposing stage. The mind by itself serves no purpose but to allow the body to perceive and think of the stimuli around it via the brain. This is a bad analogy, but I can only try to understand the concept of dualism. In fact, as a religious person, I tend to replace the word "mind" with "soul".The way you explained it is clearly Ok....
I like the way how you posted it.... simple and clean
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Legendary_Dollci wrote...
scientists find it impossible to prove its existence nor can they find a trace of evidence regarding a persons soul...And no one else can prove the existence of a soul either. That's why it's called faith. You can have faith and believe that there is a soul, or not, it's whatever a person wishes to believe.
Scientists have nothing to do with "proving the existence of a soul" as science is a method for empirical observations.
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Stenta wrote...
Legendary_Dollci wrote...
scientists find it impossible to prove its existence nor can they find a trace of evidence regarding a persons soul...And no one else can prove the existence of a soul either. That's why it's called faith. You can have faith and believe that there is a soul, or not, it's whatever a person wishes to believe.
Scientists have nothing to do with "proving the existence of a soul" as science is a method for empirical observations.
I don't disagree the fact that it is faith that lead them to believe in such matters..
and I know scientists can only research on stuff that is in their reach...
but I don't underestimate scientists.
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Takerial wrote...
-Big Lundi asks a philosophical question with only a yes or no answer possible.-Big Lundi proceeds to try and use science (badly) to answer it for himself.
-Big Lundi proceeds to make fun of anyone that doesn't believe his (bad science).
-Lawl at using purely concrete evidence is a philosophical argument.
Bad Science eh? Mind POINTING OUT the bad science instead of simpyl saying it's bad?
This is a consistent problem with you, "Oh you use bad logic." "Oh you use bad science." And when I ask you to point out what mistakes I've made, you refuse to do so, accuse me of trying to twist your words around, and insult me some more.
Please provide an actual argument, instead of a substance-less post that's nothing more than "BigLundi's dumb lol."
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FinalBoss wrote...
I believe that the mind is an invisible force of energy that flows through the body. The brain is the engine, the mind is the fuel, and the rest of the body functions in response to the chemistry between the two (engine and fuel). When the fuel gets spent, the engine and the rest of the body goes into the decomposing stage. Or maybe it is the mind that uses up the body's endurance, and it gradually decomposes via aging (while the mind is infinite and transfers from one host to another starting out as sperm). The mind by itself serves no purpose but to allow the body to perceive and think of the stimuli around it via the brain. This is a bad analogy, but I can only try to understand the concept of dualism. In fact, as a religious person, I tend to replace the word "mind" with "soul".Most people do replace 'mind' with 'soul' in Dualism.
You're saying the mind is an invisibele force of energy that causes the brain to function, and eventually, it runs out.
Well, here's the thing, if you're saying eventually the fuel runs out, then...wouldn't that mean the soul just ceases to exist?
It's a minor point really, and you even gave a seperate analogy that it's motre the engine running out and the fuel needing a place to go, but it's kind of irrelevant, as the main thing I usually like to get at with explanations like this is 'how do you know that?'. Essentially, you're making stuff up. I don't mean hat to sound derogatory in any way, but it IS what you're doing isn't it? I mean, do you have any observations that points to this conclusion? Do you have any reason beyond simply liking the idea to believe it to be true? How in any way does this do anything to explain how the brain functions? You're positing a new thing involved in the chemistry between the brain and the body that you A. have no empirical reason to believe is there, and B. Cannot explain the properties, or functions thereof...unless again..you just start making stuff up.
And, the most IMPORTANT qurestion I want to get at, is split brain patients. There are people out there who have split-brains. Essentially, they have 2 personalities, that are diametricaly opposed to eachother. A scientist, or therapist might ask a split brain patient "Do you believe in god?" and while he/she will say yes, their body will point to the answer 'no' on a chalkboard.
How do you explain them?
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BigLundi wrote...
FinalBoss wrote...
I believe that the mind is an invisible force of energy that flows through the body. The brain is the engine, the mind is the fuel, and the rest of the body functions in response to the chemistry between the two (engine and fuel). When the fuel gets spent, the engine and the rest of the body goes into the decomposing stage. Or maybe it is the mind that uses up the body's endurance, and it gradually decomposes via aging (while the mind is infinite and transfers from one host to another starting out as sperm). The mind by itself serves no purpose but to allow the body to perceive and think of the stimuli around it via the brain. This is a bad analogy, but I can only try to understand the concept of dualism. In fact, as a religious person, I tend to replace the word "mind" with "soul".Most people do replace 'mind' with 'soul' in Dualism.
You're saying the mind is an invisibele force of energy that causes the brain to function, and eventually, it runs out.
Well, here's the thing, if you're saying eventually the fuel runs out, then...wouldn't that mean the soul just ceases to exist?
It's a minor point really, and you even gave a seperate analogy that it's motre the engine running out and the fuel needing a place to go, but it's kind of irrelevant, as the main thing I usually like to get at with explanations like this is 'how do you know that?'. Essentially, you're making stuff up. I don't mean hat to sound derogatory in any way, but it IS what you're doing isn't it? I mean, do you have any observations that points to this conclusion? Do you have any reason beyond simply liking the idea to believe it to be true? How in any way does this do anything to explain how the brain functions? You're positing a new thing involved in the chemistry between the brain and the body that you A. have no empirical reason to believe is there, and B. Cannot explain the properties, or functions thereof...unless again..you just start making stuff up.
And, the most IMPORTANT qurestion I want to get at, is split brain patients. There are people out there who have split-brains. Essentially, they have 2 personalities, that are diametricaly opposed to eachother. A scientist, or therapist might ask a split brain patient "Do you believe in god?" and while he/she will say yes, their body will point to the answer 'no' on a chalkboard.
How do you explain them?
I believe he was just using a simple analogical term for it..
I don't see a reason arguing about his way of saying it since it's simple in a non scientific way which means he somehow makes sense but also doesn't require any evidence because the the brain and the body really do work together ( in his way of saying it)..
I am Legendary_Dollci and I approve this message (Thumbs up)
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FinalBoss
#levelupyourgrind
Legendary_Dollci wrote...
BigLundi wrote...
FinalBoss wrote...
I believe that the mind is an invisible force of energy that flows through the body. The brain is the engine, the mind is the fuel, and the rest of the body functions in response to the chemistry between the two (engine and fuel). When the fuel gets spent, the engine and the rest of the body goes into the decomposing stage. Or maybe it is the mind that uses up the body's endurance, and it gradually decomposes via aging (while the mind is infinite and transfers from one host to another starting out as sperm). The mind by itself serves no purpose but to allow the body to perceive and think of the stimuli around it via the brain. This is a bad analogy, but I can only try to understand the concept of dualism. In fact, as a religious person, I tend to replace the word "mind" with "soul".Most people do replace 'mind' with 'soul' in Dualism.
You're saying the mind is an invisibele force of energy that causes the brain to function, and eventually, it runs out.
Well, here's the thing, if you're saying eventually the fuel runs out, then...1)wouldn't that mean the soul just ceases to exist?
It's a minor point really, and you even gave a seperate analogy that it's motre the engine running out and the fuel needing a place to go, but it's kind of irrelevant, as the main thing I usually like to get at with explanations like this is 'how do you know that?'. Essentially, you're making stuff up. I don't mean hat to sound derogatory in any way, but it IS what you're doing isn't it? I mean, do you have any observations that points to this conclusion? Do you have any reason beyond simply liking the idea to believe it to be true? How in any way does this do anything to explain how the brain functions? You're positing a new thing involved in the chemistry between the brain and the body that you A. have no empirical reason to believe is there, and B. Cannot explain the properties, or functions thereof...unless again..you just start making stuff up.
And, the most IMPORTANT qurestion I want to get at, is split brain patients. There are people out there who have split-brains. Essentially, they have 2 personalities, that are diametricaly opposed to eachother. A scientist, or therapist might ask a split brain patient "Do you believe in god?" and while he/she will say yes, their body will point to the answer 'no' on a chalkboard.
2)How do you explain them?
I believe he was just using a simple analogical term for it..I don't see a reason arguing about his way of saying it since it's simple in a non scientific way which means he somehow makes sense but also doesn't require any evidence because the the brain and the body really do work together ( in his way of saying it)..
I am Legendary_Dollci and I approve this message (Thumbs up)
^ Pretty much this. They're just theories dood. I'm in no way saying my theory is correct (I can't help but to notice a pattern that whenever I come up with foreign or new theories for something, it ends up being looked at as radical or just plain wrong...oh well.). Anyways, I haven't had a decent debate for awhile so I'll continue to play your game until it gets boring.
First off, I can't explain the existence of the mind no better than scientists can explain the phenomenon of gravity. Now, the two analogies I presented are based on what I learned in a high school physics courses. 1) I don't actually believe in the analogy I used about "fuel running out" since fuel doesn't literally run out, but rather it gets converted into another element. All matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, it can only get converted into another form. I believe the mind (or soul) "gradually" drives the body into a decomposed state due to the work it puts on the body. Since the mind is simply invisible energy (according to my belief), it can travel faster than the speed of light once the physical body is no longer functional (This is my reasoning as to why I believe in reincarnation, but that's another story.).
2) Are you sure you want me to explain split brains? It'll be another imaginary theory just like the two analogies and gravity....Ah fuck it, I might as well. Before I begin let's make something clear: The mind is invisible energy that has no properties of its own (in other words, its a force that can't be tested or measured).
With that said, the mind has little to do with SB. Split brains is a physical problem in which the part of the brain that connects the two hemispheres is severed. So in a nutshell, the engine is fucked up. Hmmm..that was faster than i thought it would be, thanks wiki!
If you think my theories are weird, you should read "The mystery of ages". The author thinks the soul is the entire physical body, lol. Also, I didn't vote on the poll because there should have been a "maybe".
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FinalBoss wrote...
Legendary_Dollci wrote...
BigLundi wrote...
FinalBoss wrote...
I believe that the mind is an invisible force of energy that flows through the body. The brain is the engine, the mind is the fuel, and the rest of the body functions in response to the chemistry between the two (engine and fuel). When the fuel gets spent, the engine and the rest of the body goes into the decomposing stage. Or maybe it is the mind that uses up the body's endurance, and it gradually decomposes via aging (while the mind is infinite and transfers from one host to another starting out as sperm). The mind by itself serves no purpose but to allow the body to perceive and think of the stimuli around it via the brain. This is a bad analogy, but I can only try to understand the concept of dualism. In fact, as a religious person, I tend to replace the word "mind" with "soul".Most people do replace 'mind' with 'soul' in Dualism.
You're saying the mind is an invisibele force of energy that causes the brain to function, and eventually, it runs out.
Well, here's the thing, if you're saying eventually the fuel runs out, then...1)wouldn't that mean the soul just ceases to exist?
It's a minor point really, and you even gave a seperate analogy that it's motre the engine running out and the fuel needing a place to go, but it's kind of irrelevant, as the main thing I usually like to get at with explanations like this is 'how do you know that?'. Essentially, you're making stuff up. I don't mean hat to sound derogatory in any way, but it IS what you're doing isn't it? I mean, do you have any observations that points to this conclusion? Do you have any reason beyond simply liking the idea to believe it to be true? How in any way does this do anything to explain how the brain functions? You're positing a new thing involved in the chemistry between the brain and the body that you A. have no empirical reason to believe is there, and B. Cannot explain the properties, or functions thereof...unless again..you just start making stuff up.
And, the most IMPORTANT qurestion I want to get at, is split brain patients. There are people out there who have split-brains. Essentially, they have 2 personalities, that are diametricaly opposed to eachother. A scientist, or therapist might ask a split brain patient "Do you believe in god?" and while he/she will say yes, their body will point to the answer 'no' on a chalkboard.
2)How do you explain them?
I believe he was just using a simple analogical term for it..I don't see a reason arguing about his way of saying it since it's simple in a non scientific way which means he somehow makes sense but also doesn't require any evidence because the the brain and the body really do work together ( in his way of saying it)..
I am Legendary_Dollci and I approve this message (Thumbs up)
^ Pretty much this. They're just theories dood. I'm in no way saying my theory is correct (I can't help but to notice a pattern that whenever I come up with foreign or new theories for something, it ends up being looked at as radical or just plain wrong...oh well.). Anyways, I haven't had a decent debate for awhile so I'll continue to play your game until it gets boring.
First off, I can't explain the existence of the mind no better than scientists can explain the phenomenon of gravity. Now, the two analogies I presented are based on what I learned in a high school physics courses. 1) I don't actually believe in the analogy I used about "fuel running out" since fuel doesn't literally run out, but rather it gets converted into another element. All matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, it can only get converted into another form. I believe the mind (or soul) "gradually" drives the body into a decomposed state due to the work it puts on the body. Since the mind is simply invisible energy (according to my belief), it can travel faster than the speed of light once the physical body is no longer functional (This is my reasoning as to why I believe in reincarnation, but that's another story.).
2) Are you sure you want me to explain split brains? It'll be another imaginary theory just like the two analogies and gravity....Ah fuck it, I might as well. Before I begin let's make something clear: The mind is invisible energy that has no properties of its own (in other words, its a force that can't be tested or measured).
With that said, the mind has little to do with SB. Split brains is a physical problem in which the part of the brain that connects the two hemispheres is severed. So in a nutshell, the engine is fucked up. Hmmm..that was faster than i thought it would be, thanks wiki!
If you think my theories are weird, you should read "The mystery of ages". The author thinks the soul is the entire physical body, lol. Also, I didn't vote on the poll because there should have been a "maybe".
Nope a persons analogy can definitely be interpreted into a more understandable sentence.... if someone so smart like some of these guys are can't understand a simple 5th grade analogy of how the body works then im guessing they were never a kid to begin with.... no offense my Fakku-ers just wrote that as a general speech, it has no specific meaning to insult Fakku-ers members here.
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Takerial
Lovable Teddy Bear
BigLundi wrote...
Takerial wrote...
-Big Lundi asks a philosophical question with only a yes or no answer possible.-Big Lundi proceeds to try and use science (badly) to answer it for himself.
-Big Lundi proceeds to make fun of anyone that doesn't believe his (bad science).
-Lawl at using purely concrete evidence is a philosophical argument.
Bad Science eh? Mind POINTING OUT the bad science instead of simpyl saying it's bad?
This is a consistent problem with you, "Oh you use bad logic." "Oh you use bad science." And when I ask you to point out what mistakes I've made, you refuse to do so, accuse me of trying to twist your words around, and insult me some more.
Please provide an actual argument, instead of a substance-less post that's nothing more than "BigLundi's dumb lol."
I'm still waiting for you to provide an actual argument first. You did try and start this debate.
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FinalBoss wrote...
^ Pretty much this. They're just theories dood. I'm in no way saying my theory is correct (I can't help but to notice a pattern that whenever I come up with foreign or new theories for something, it ends up being looked at as radical or just plain wrong...oh well.). Anyways, I haven't had a decent debate for awhile so I'll continue to play your game until it gets boring.
*sigh* So you're debating something that you already admit is in no way meant to be even correct? Why debate something idf you don't even have a reason to think it's correct beyond...oh I dunno, WANTING it to be correct?
First off, I can't explain the existence of the mind no better than scientists can explain the phenomenon of gravity.
You can't explain the mind NEAR as well as scientists can explain gravity. Gravity is extremely highly understood, observable, testable, and constant. there are plenty of things we understand about gravity, and how it work, and all these things are demonstrable. There is NOTHING you can explain about the mind, that is in any way demonstrable, because as you already say, it's an invisible, untestable, undetectable 'force'. By the way, an apologetics website isn't a good place to see what scientists have to say about gravity. Try physics papers...like...oh I dunno, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0370157399000836 which has a...REALLY long explanation of just SOME of the things we know today.
Now, the two analogies I presented are based on what I learned in a high school physics courses. 1) I don't actually believe in the analogy I used about "fuel running out" since fuel doesn't literally run out, but rather it gets converted into another element. All matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, it can only get converted into another form. I believe the mind (or soul) "gradually" drives the body into a decomposed state due to the work it puts on the body.
So you have defined mind to be a thing that actually does work, a thing that DOES consist of energy, a thing that IS either energy, or matter. In essence, the mind(soul) IS a physical substance, via your definition, which defeats the entire purpose of Mind/body dualism, because the mind is a NONphysical substance, by definition, in Dualism.
Since the mind is simply invisible energy (according to my belief)
Invisible energy is stil ap physical substance you know. Microwaves, for instance, are a physical substance. And if it's a physical substance, it CAN be tested, it CAN be observed, and since neither has been done for this supposed 'mind' you're putting forth as an existent thing....I'm wondering how in the WORLD you know anything about its properties aside from...randomly guessing, and making stuff up?
, it can travel faster than the speed of light once the physical body is no longer functional (This is my reasoning as to why I believe in reincarnation, but that's another story.).
Based on what? I mean, not only can only extremely small particles, that we know of, travel faster than the speed of light, and even then only with catalysts, but you essentially just made up a substance that's physical, yet invisible, that cando something that up till a few years ago, scientists were fairly certain was a physical impossibility.
2) Are you sure you want me to explain split brains? It'll be another imaginary theory just like the two analogies and gravity....Ah fuck it, I might as well. Before I begin let's make something clear: The mind is invisible energy that has no properties of its own (in other words, its a force that can't be tested or measured).[/quote]
If it can't be tested or measured, guess what? It's not energy. Energy CAN be tested, and measured.
With that said, the mind has little to do with SB. Split brains is a physical problem in which the part of the brain that connects the two hemispheres is severed. So in a nutshell, the engine is fucked up. Hmmm..that was faster than i thought it would be, thanks wiki!
If you think my theories are weird, you should read "The mystery of ages". The author thinks the soul is the entire physical body, lol. Also, I didn't vote on the poll because there should have been a "maybe".
If you think my theories are weird, you should read "The mystery of ages". The author thinks the soul is the entire physical body, lol. Also, I didn't vote on the poll because there should have been a "maybe".
So let me get this straight. I asked you to use Dualism to explain split brain patients. And you said, "Sure." and you looked up what a split brain patient is, and gave the explanation of them...without using the mind...and then said, "Well, it has very ittle to do with the mind." Excuse me, but if you're calling the mind the 'soul' and it has ANY function at all in running the brain, but you have to explain SB using the mind. you don't get to just say, "The mind isn't in play here, it's just the brain." and then say that mind brain duality in ANY way explains SB patients. It doesn't, and you basically just flat out admitted this. My entire contention with Mind Body duality is that tthe offering of the existence of this thing called a 'mind' that in some way interacts withthe brain(a way you still haven't defined, besides using the analogy that it's 'fuel' in some way) in order to form our perception, personality, and everything that makes us...individual people. Yet, when asked to USE this duality to explain a problem wit hthe brain, you can't do it, you can only explain it in terms of the brain being all there is, with no mind at play. the mind offers nothinadditional to the tablIt's a no, invisible, untestable, unobservable thit is no different from anythign that's nonexistent...so why accept it as being 'there'?
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FinalBoss
#levelupyourgrind
You know what the best things about theories are? They can be dis-proven and replaced by new theories. Unfortunately, the concept of dualism is a bad theory since it can't be proven or dis-proven. Any new theories that try to replace the old theory will be shot down (and ridiculed?) since it can't be tested or measured. I am already aware that the theories and explanations of dualism would get disregarded by you, I was just having some fun (while it lasts). Here are some more crack pot theories that you would definitely shoot down:
1) Outside of our universe are highly intelligent beings playing a virtual reality game, and we are imaginary characters. The mind is simply a link between the character and the player's brain (which would explain why we get sleepy).
2) The mind is a force that works outside of the universe. Therefore, the universe itself is the engine and the mind is the fuel.
3) There is a God and he is trolling us big time.
Personally, the first theory is my favorite. Anyways, you have earned my respect for being a good debater (Good as in well educated). However, dualism is a bad subject to debate about since all you're really doing is chasing after a pink dragon that isn't really there (in terms of the materialistic universe we live and study in). I can only assume that you chose this topic to boost your ego or something like that.
1) Outside of our universe are highly intelligent beings playing a virtual reality game, and we are imaginary characters. The mind is simply a link between the character and the player's brain (which would explain why we get sleepy).
2) The mind is a force that works outside of the universe. Therefore, the universe itself is the engine and the mind is the fuel.
3) There is a God and he is trolling us big time.
Personally, the first theory is my favorite. Anyways, you have earned my respect for being a good debater (Good as in well educated). However, dualism is a bad subject to debate about since all you're really doing is chasing after a pink dragon that isn't really there (in terms of the materialistic universe we live and study in). I can only assume that you chose this topic to boost your ego or something like that.
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FinalBoss wrote...
1) Outside of our universe are highly intelligent beings playing a virtual reality game, and we are imaginary characters. The mind is simply a link between the character and the player's brain (which would explain why we get sleepy).
2) The mind is a force that works outside of the universe. Therefore, the universe itself is the engine and the mind is the fuel.
3) There is a God and he is trolling us big time.
2 points. 1. All three of those 'theories' are not 'theories' they are hypotheses. And...wel..they're all just as demonstrated as the existence of a nonphysical mind.
2. I didnt put 'maybe' up there because 'maybe' is included in 'no'.
The question is 'do you accept mind brain duality?'
If you answer, "I don't know if it's true or not, I have no opinion on it." Then guess what?
>.>
<.<
You don't accept it.
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FinalBoss
#levelupyourgrind
Well, I gave it some thought and I decided to answer yes on the poll. I believe the mind works outside of the universe. Anything that resides outside of the universe can't be perceived, tested or measured due to our limitations to travel outside our default dimension. We're like fish in a big ass fish tank. The fish can only swim within the range of the tank, it is impossible for the fish to swim outside of that tank. However, the fish stay alive when fish food drops down from up top of the tank. For us, the food is the mind (or soul).
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FinalBoss wrote...
Well, I gave it some thought and I decided to answer yes on the poll. I believe the mind works outside of the universe. Anything that resides outside of the universe can't be perceived, tested or measured due to our limitations to travel outside our default dimension. We're like fish in a big ass fish tank. The fish can only swim within the range of the tank, it is impossible for the fish to swim outside of that tank. However, the fish stay alive when fish food drops down from up top of the tank. For us, the food is the mind (or soul).The way you explained it.... is really reasonable and simple and I like it
I also voted yes on it since I have my own theory about it....
The mind can only travel as far as we can reach it....
We may think WE already did so much but in comparison with the universe we pretty much did as much as serving burgers in a fast food restaurant...
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FinalBoss wrote...
Well, I gave it some thought and I decided to answer yes on the poll. I believe the mind works outside of the universe. Anything that resides outside of the universe can't be perceived, tested or measured due to our limitations to travel outside our default dimension. We're like fish in a big ass fish tank. The fish can only swim within the range of the tank, it is impossible for the fish to swim outside of that tank. However, the fish stay alive when fish food drops down from up top of the tank. For us, the food is the mind (or soul)....Alright, as nondescreptive as that analogy was, I just have this to ask you. How do you differentiate between something that's outside the universe, can't be percieved, tested, or measured...and something that's nonexistent?