Not even Agnostic
0
So I read the karma thread just a few minutes ago and was about to post when I realized my experience with 'karma' was not the same as most karma people are familiar with.
Not too long ago, I called myself agnostic. However, after a series of events occurred in which I was thrown into various states of despair, I had an epiphany.
As most may or may not know, agnosticism is differs from Atheism in that Agnostics are unsure as to if there really is a god or not. They are looking for concrete proof of one or the other, and usually may or may not find it.
I found it in early February of this year, when my heart was torn apart into different pieces and scattered to the winds. But that is another story. It's relevance though, is key to this entire topic.
As I sat moping for the next month or two in self-pity, I wondered...who was to blame? Was it I? With my almost schizophrenic state of being both a mature adult and yet at the same time a confused teenager? Or was it her? With her lack of realization of just how important she was to me. Or was it a ruthless and cold side that I had not been able to see, and she knew exactly what she did to me and no longer cared?
These types of questions completely plagued my mind for even longer than my moping time, and it wasn't until August that I came to understand it. At first, I mistook it for Fate, the inescapable truth that nothing may be avoided. It was not long after that I experienced a slew of good luck, and I believe it was too well timed for it to be coincidence. So I took a few days to reflect upon....quite literally...everything. Anything that I could remember happening to me that was unfair or unexpectedly appreciated, I thought of it all. Through these days a sort of realization came to me, and while I intend no insult to any religion you may or may not have, it occurred to me all the same.
I was subject to a god of my own creation. Not a special deity with omnipotent powers, or someone like that Haruhi character, but a personal god from which all my life was governed. You might call it having an argument with my own personal demons, but I don't believe that is the case
This god (which I believe to be akin to a woman, perhaps because of my own mixed experience with them) is absolutely apathetic. She has no sympathy for the happenings of my life, has a wickedly just sense of humor, and is completely dependent on the choices I make. I have also discovered that this god seems to like peaches (it's a long story, don't ask)
Now, some may call that putting a face on accountability, and hence leading to the fact that I cannot face the simple aspect of random chance, or my own choices. However I could say the same to all members of mainstream religion and I believe would not be far from the truth.
So in short, through my own life experience I have come to believe in a god that exists only in my mind. It is no religion, and I wouldn't dare attempt to push this belief on anyone, as most may not understand it. But that brings me to the point of this topic
Can you understand what I've just explained? To have a god of ones own creation is not something I can recall hearing of. Which brings out another question; Have you experienced something akin to what I have?
Not too long ago, I called myself agnostic. However, after a series of events occurred in which I was thrown into various states of despair, I had an epiphany.
As most may or may not know, agnosticism is differs from Atheism in that Agnostics are unsure as to if there really is a god or not. They are looking for concrete proof of one or the other, and usually may or may not find it.
I found it in early February of this year, when my heart was torn apart into different pieces and scattered to the winds. But that is another story. It's relevance though, is key to this entire topic.
As I sat moping for the next month or two in self-pity, I wondered...who was to blame? Was it I? With my almost schizophrenic state of being both a mature adult and yet at the same time a confused teenager? Or was it her? With her lack of realization of just how important she was to me. Or was it a ruthless and cold side that I had not been able to see, and she knew exactly what she did to me and no longer cared?
These types of questions completely plagued my mind for even longer than my moping time, and it wasn't until August that I came to understand it. At first, I mistook it for Fate, the inescapable truth that nothing may be avoided. It was not long after that I experienced a slew of good luck, and I believe it was too well timed for it to be coincidence. So I took a few days to reflect upon....quite literally...everything. Anything that I could remember happening to me that was unfair or unexpectedly appreciated, I thought of it all. Through these days a sort of realization came to me, and while I intend no insult to any religion you may or may not have, it occurred to me all the same.
I was subject to a god of my own creation. Not a special deity with omnipotent powers, or someone like that Haruhi character, but a personal god from which all my life was governed. You might call it having an argument with my own personal demons, but I don't believe that is the case
This god (which I believe to be akin to a woman, perhaps because of my own mixed experience with them) is absolutely apathetic. She has no sympathy for the happenings of my life, has a wickedly just sense of humor, and is completely dependent on the choices I make. I have also discovered that this god seems to like peaches (it's a long story, don't ask)
Now, some may call that putting a face on accountability, and hence leading to the fact that I cannot face the simple aspect of random chance, or my own choices. However I could say the same to all members of mainstream religion and I believe would not be far from the truth.
So in short, through my own life experience I have come to believe in a god that exists only in my mind. It is no religion, and I wouldn't dare attempt to push this belief on anyone, as most may not understand it. But that brings me to the point of this topic
Can you understand what I've just explained? To have a god of ones own creation is not something I can recall hearing of. Which brings out another question; Have you experienced something akin to what I have?
0
I can sort of see what you mean. Your God is basically your destiny (or something like that).
I cannot however, understand that point of view. I think you and your ex partner lacked communication. As it seems that you do not comprehend why you had to separate. I'm sure it must have a reason. And I believe that it had nothing to do with any higher being or personal god.
Please do try to clarify me your point of you if you think I understood things wrong.
I cannot however, understand that point of view. I think you and your ex partner lacked communication. As it seems that you do not comprehend why you had to separate. I'm sure it must have a reason. And I believe that it had nothing to do with any higher being or personal god.
Please do try to clarify me your point of you if you think I understood things wrong.
0
Kuroneko1/2 wrote...
I think you and your ex partner lacked communication. As it seems that you do not comprehend why you had to separate. We lacked communication, that much I'm sure of. Also true is that I do not understand why we had to separate. However as hard as I tried to talk to her, and as much as I tried, she was never able to convey what she was thinking or trying to tell me. As clear as I was to her, and as hard (and often) as I tried to understand her, it makes no sense that things turned out the way they did. I went through too much and had more questions than answers (actually, I had no answers at all) than I would have felt comfortable with.
In a way, I suppose it is destiny. A means to an end as it were. And as much as I understand the means, and as well as I feel they are executed, I see no sensible way that things turned out much differently than was originally intended.
Chance or bad luck can't explain things like that, not for me.
0
oneshott wrote...
Can you understand what I've just explained? To have a god of ones own creation is not something I can recall hearing of. Which brings out another question; Have you experienced something akin to what I have?I can understand why you think that way and the conclusion that you've reached.
"A god of one's creation"? I've heard of that before, but it was used in an entirely different meaning than the context you've used here. You use this phrase as a means of conveying the concept of fate/destiny, but in most cases it is used as an allegory to a person's freewill/self-control.
No, I have not experienced anything akin to what you have. All my epiphanies reinforced my atheistic beliefs.
0
ZeroOBK wrote...
All my epiphanies reinforced my atheistic beliefs.If you don't mind my asking, what sort of epiphanies?
0
Basically "I'm the God of my own history"? to quote something.
I can somewhat understand what you mean, since it is not very unlike both the thoughts that actually made me join the church, and later quit it. When I went through my confirmation I was very vulnerable. I had just hurt my back so badly I had to quit training, witch was what I spent mostly of my time doing. I went in depression, psychologists, all that crap. But then I found "God". At the confirmation we were told of a "personal God" and how God appears different for everyone even though He is only one, this hooked me directly. Here I had something to turn to, something to confide in. And I made up my own personal version of God.
Later on I realized that this was wrong somehow. And that Christianity was not for me, even though I still believe that one makes up his own god, this being only being something of your own creation. Something to fall back on when there's nothing else.
I can somewhat understand what you mean, since it is not very unlike both the thoughts that actually made me join the church, and later quit it. When I went through my confirmation I was very vulnerable. I had just hurt my back so badly I had to quit training, witch was what I spent mostly of my time doing. I went in depression, psychologists, all that crap. But then I found "God". At the confirmation we were told of a "personal God" and how God appears different for everyone even though He is only one, this hooked me directly. Here I had something to turn to, something to confide in. And I made up my own personal version of God.
Later on I realized that this was wrong somehow. And that Christianity was not for me, even though I still believe that one makes up his own god, this being only being something of your own creation. Something to fall back on when there's nothing else.
0
oneshott wrote...
ZeroOBK wrote...
All my epiphanies reinforced my atheistic beliefs.If you don't mind my asking, what sort of epiphanies?
I don't want to go into details, but let's just say that in one case, serious shit happened, and afterwards, I realized that it was my fault. I had tried to deflect the blame initially, but I came to understand that I was in full control of my actions. No external forces caused me to act as I had.
0
Dude, there are subdivisions of Agnostics, and its basically still either you're theistic or atheistic:
Agnostic Theist - believes in the existence of a God or Divine being, but they don't stick with dogmas and beliefs that comes with that god. Example is a man who believes that there is a God somewhere, but he doesn't know if that god is malevolent or benevolent. Even if somebody says that God is good, or that God is bitchy mother-fucker with a magnifying glass, he believes in neither because he wants to learn the truth through experience or asking God when he dies, etc...
Agnostic Atheists - believes that there is no god, and neither is there karma, luck, destiny, etc. An agnostic atheist believes in nothing and thinks of nothing except the plane of existence he is currently in.
Being agnostic is like being the negative of either theists or atheists. Its your choice.
Agnostic Theist - believes in the existence of a God or Divine being, but they don't stick with dogmas and beliefs that comes with that god. Example is a man who believes that there is a God somewhere, but he doesn't know if that god is malevolent or benevolent. Even if somebody says that God is good, or that God is bitchy mother-fucker with a magnifying glass, he believes in neither because he wants to learn the truth through experience or asking God when he dies, etc...
Agnostic Atheists - believes that there is no god, and neither is there karma, luck, destiny, etc. An agnostic atheist believes in nothing and thinks of nothing except the plane of existence he is currently in.
Being agnostic is like being the negative of either theists or atheists. Its your choice.
0
Agnosticism is not a belief.....
It is a knowledge based statement.
I am an atheist agnostic. agnosticism can be used for any religious or non religious belief just as gnosticism can too.
You do not need to have knowledge of something to form a belief about it.
So either you believe in a god or you do not. Knowing if there is a god is different.
It is a knowledge based statement.
I am an atheist agnostic. agnosticism can be used for any religious or non religious belief just as gnosticism can too.
You do not need to have knowledge of something to form a belief about it.
So either you believe in a god or you do not. Knowing if there is a god is different.
0
Ironytaken wrote...
Agnosticism is not a belief.....It is a knowledge based statement.
I am an atheist agnostic. agnosticism can be used for any religious or non religious belief just as gnosticism can too.
You do not need to have knowledge of something to form a belief about it.
So either you believe in a god or you do not. Knowing if there is a god is different.
Wow... never saw it that way.
I suppose, yeah, agnosticism can be based on knowledge, not belief. Good point.
Then that shall make me a true theist, believing and knowing the existence of a God.
0
thegreatnobody wrote...
Dude, there are subdivisions of Agnostics, and its basically still either you're theistic or atheistic:Agnostic Theist - believes in the existence of a God or Divine being, but they don't stick with dogmas and beliefs that comes with that god. Example is a man who believes that there is a God somewhere, but he doesn't know if that god is malevolent or benevolent. Even if somebody says that God is good, or that God is bitchy mother-fucker with a magnifying glass, he believes in neither because he wants to learn the truth through experience or asking God when he dies, etc...
Agnostic Atheists - believes that there is no god, and neither is there karma, luck, destiny, etc. An agnostic atheist believes in nothing and thinks of nothing except the plane of existence he is currently in.
Being agnostic is like being the negative of either theists or atheists. Its your choice.
Would you elaborate a little more? I don't think you've gotten either definition correct. I haven't taken formal courses on this and had a professor sort of help me through or give an opinion on my take on this stuff, so I can't say I'm an authority on this matter. I'm very open to correction, should I be incorrect in my assumptions.
Now, from what I can say, the question of Theism is whether or not you believe in a god. The question of Gnosticism is whether or not we actually have an "informed take on the situation"; in other words, if we either know or can know this.
Now, to take the obvious definition out of the way:
A Theist (from the greek 'Theos', meaning 'God') is someone who believes there is a god. This usually manifests in a personal or intercessory god or gods. This, however, is not to be confused with what is also considered to be a form of secular beliefs: Deism, which is the belief in God, but solely as a 'First Cause', not someone who intervenes. Basically, he made this shit and went about his own business: taking naps, watching football, playing D&D with... himself? And so on
This is further subdivided into the Gnostic (from the greek 'Gnosis' meaning 'Knowledge') and Agnostic ('Without knowledge') variables:
~Gnostic Theist- (sometimes referred to as 'Strong Theist') Believes there is a god and that he either has the knowledge or proof of such, or thinks it can someday be known. They stick to certain statements concerning the nature of the divine usually up to the very intimate details.
~Agnostic Theist- (sometimes referred to as 'Weak Theist') While he doesn't make a claim to knowledge, he chooses to believe somewhat for its own merit. He usually takes the route of 'Faith': there is no evidence, and therefore it is required to have faith. They may or may not stick to the tenets and dogmas of their chosen faith, but they acknowledge that the nature of this deity cannot be fully understood.
An Atheist (meaning, 'Without God') is someone who does not believe in the divine. While it usually takes the form of the statement, "We lack belief in a god", it may also manifest in the other, "We believe there is no god".
This is also divided into its Gnostic and Agnostic counterparts:
~Agnostic Atheist- (sometimes referred to as 'Weak Atheist') makes the statement that while we don't have the evidence to prove the existence of a god, they choose not to believe in it because, for starters, no evidence is what you'd expect to see if there wasn't any. They make the claim to lack a belief and that the matter has not been fully settled, but they make the assumption that the divine probably doesn't exist and may be convinced otherwise, should proper evidence come to their attention.
~Gnostic Atheist- (sometimes referred to as 'Strong Atheist' makes the statement that "God doesn't exist". They often make the claim that current evidence is enough to have disproven the existence of a god.
I think this more accurately depicts the subvariations of Theism. I used the word 'god' in minor-case because I'm not reffering to a specific deity reffered to as such, but in the most general term for any divine entity(-ies).
Now, as for the author of this thread, I cannot say I understand you, but I do somewhat get a feeling for what you're trying to tell us. I think it's not far from human nature, really. Whenever something really good happens, I have the strong urge (probably due to my religious upgringing) to just jump at the sky and yell 'Thank you!' or do the same whenever I narrowly escape harm- like a car accident, for example.
While I'd love to do the same whenever a bad thing happens, I usually just look at it objectively and blame the party responsible, myself included. I think this is an ethical responsibility and a necessary thing for the betterment of myself, if that's an actual phrase.
I could venture to guess as to why someone would choose to simply create his own, which I have no problem with so long as they keep this to themselves- which you seem to have no problem doing.
Basically, my take on the matter is: To each his own, I guess.
0
It looks to me like your god is just you making sense of your worldview, and really, you seem to be at a pretty depressing phase of your life.
Personally, I put away my god issues a long time ago, because really, if he created the universe, why would he bother with us specifically? at any rate, God may be omnipresent and omnipotent, but honestly, whether he is or not hasn't and probably won't change a damn thing in life, regardless of what we do.
But yeah, to each his own, I guess.
Personally, I put away my god issues a long time ago, because really, if he created the universe, why would he bother with us specifically? at any rate, God may be omnipresent and omnipotent, but honestly, whether he is or not hasn't and probably won't change a damn thing in life, regardless of what we do.
But yeah, to each his own, I guess.
0
JtheApostate wrote...
thegreatnobody wrote...
Dude, there are subdivisions of Agnostics, and its basically still either you're theistic or atheistic:Agnostic Theist - believes in the existence of a God or Divine being, but they don't stick with dogmas and beliefs that comes with that god. Example is a man who believes that there is a God somewhere, but he doesn't know if that god is malevolent or benevolent. Even if somebody says that God is good, or that God is bitchy mother-fucker with a magnifying glass, he believes in neither because he wants to learn the truth through experience or asking God when he dies, etc...
Agnostic Atheists - believes that there is no god, and neither is there karma, luck, destiny, etc. An agnostic atheist believes in nothing and thinks of nothing except the plane of existence he is currently in.
Being agnostic is like being the negative of either theists or atheists. Its your choice.
Would you elaborate a little more? I don't think you've gotten either definition correct. I haven't taken formal courses on this and had a professor sort of help me through or give an opinion on my take on this stuff, so I can't say I'm an authority on this matter. I'm very open to correction, should I be incorrect in my assumptions.
Now, from what I can say, the question of Theism is whether or not you believe in a god. The question of Gnosticism is whether or not we actually have an "informed take on the situation"; in other words, if we either know or can know this.
Now, to take the obvious definition out of the way:
A Theist (from the greek 'Theos', meaning 'God') is someone who believes there is a god. This usually manifests in a personal or intercessory god or gods. This, however, is not to be confused with what is also considered to be a form of secular beliefs: Deism, which is the belief in God, but solely as a 'First Cause', not someone who intervenes. Basically, he made this shit and went about his own business: taking naps, watching football, playing D&D with... himself? And so on
This is further subdivided into the Gnostic (from the greek 'Gnosis' meaning 'Knowledge') and Agnostic ('Without knowledge') variables:
~Gnostic Theist- (sometimes referred to as 'Strong Theist') Believes there is a god and that he either has the knowledge or proof of such, or thinks it can someday be known. They stick to certain statements concerning the nature of the divine usually up to the very intimate details.
~Agnostic Theist- (sometimes referred to as 'Weak Theist') While he doesn't make a claim to knowledge, he chooses to believe somewhat for its own merit. He usually takes the route of 'Faith': there is no evidence, and therefore it is required to have faith. They may or may not stick to the tenets and dogmas of their chosen faith, but they acknowledge that the nature of this deity cannot be fully understood.
An Atheist (meaning, 'Without God') is someone who does not believe in the divine. While it usually takes the form of the statement, "We lack belief in a god", it may also manifest in the other, "We believe there is no god".
This is also divided into its Gnostic and Agnostic counterparts:
~Agnostic Atheist- (sometimes referred to as 'Weak Atheist') makes the statement that while we don't have the evidence to prove the existence of a god, they choose not to believe in it because, for starters, no evidence is what you'd expect to see if there wasn't any. They make the claim to lack a belief and that the matter has not been fully settled, but they make the assumption that the divine probably doesn't exist and may be convinced otherwise, should proper evidence come to their attention.
~Gnostic Atheist- (sometimes referred to as 'Strong Atheist' makes the statement that "God doesn't exist". They often make the claim that current evidence is enough to have disproven the existence of a god.
I think this more accurately depicts the subvariations of Theism. I used the word 'god' in minor-case because I'm not reffering to a specific deity reffered to as such, but in the most general term for any divine entity(-ies).
Now, as for the author of this thread, I cannot say I understand you, but I do somewhat get a feeling for what you're trying to tell us. I think it's not far from human nature, really. Whenever something really good happens, I have the strong urge (probably due to my religious upgringing) to just jump at the sky and yell 'Thank you!' or do the same whenever I narrowly escape harm- like a car accident, for example.
While I'd love to do the same whenever a bad thing happens, I usually just look at it objectively and blame the party responsible, myself included. I think this is an ethical responsibility and a necessary thing for the betterment of myself, if that's an actual phrase.
I could venture to guess as to why someone would choose to simply create his own, which I have no problem with so long as they keep this to themselves- which you seem to have no problem doing.
Basically, my take on the matter is: To each his own, I guess.
Same as you, I didn't study this much. I based my definition on wikipedia (heh, pretty much kills my argument) and the terminology itself.
Isn't it that that suffix A- means without and Gnostis means knowledge. You are right, but so am I because in Agnostic Theism, you agree only to the point on the knowledge on there being a God, but denies further knowledge (dogmas, faiths, etc).
An Agnostic Theist denies any knowledge relating to there being a God and anything related to it.
Like Ironytaken said, the topic of gnosticism is more related to the knowledge than belief.
I used to ba an agnostic theist like Charles Darwin. I know of the existence of God, but I deny what others are telling me about him and I content myself with just knowing he is there. Now that I discovered a strong proof of God's existence, I now consider myself an Gnostic Theist. Btw, I may be a Christian, but I don't limit my theological knowledge to the Abrahamic God.