Prayer or Medicine
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Issue: We've all heard news reports that a family doesn't seek medical care for their child and opt for prayer to healing instead. This usually results in the child's death.
Article
So the question is: Should parents being held liable for the deaths or other harm a child sustains due to the parents choice to opt out of medical treatment? This concerns only under age child or others still dependent on their legal guardians.
Where do you draw the line when it comes to the freedom of religion and the related practices?
My personal stance is that the parents should be held liable. The well being of their child is their responsibility and by making a conscious decision to avoid reliable treatment shows a lack of responsibility.
As for where do I draw the line. I stop the protection as soon as they endanger any non-consenting adults or the life of somebody in their care.
Article
So the question is: Should parents being held liable for the deaths or other harm a child sustains due to the parents choice to opt out of medical treatment? This concerns only under age child or others still dependent on their legal guardians.
Where do you draw the line when it comes to the freedom of religion and the related practices?
My personal stance is that the parents should be held liable. The well being of their child is their responsibility and by making a conscious decision to avoid reliable treatment shows a lack of responsibility.
As for where do I draw the line. I stop the protection as soon as they endanger any non-consenting adults or the life of somebody in their care.
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Surprisingly, that happened in Wisconsin (the incident mentioned in the article). I'd think something like that would most likely happen in an underdeveloped country with a lack of authority and control over it's people, a tribal country, place or continent. Kinda surprised me that it happened here in the United States. I don't say that in an overly nationalistic way or anything. I just would think someone would do something, even if the parents didn't.
But putting that aside and getting to what seems to be the topic at hand, I'm not sure who should be blamed in this case or where the line should be drawn. Based on what I read, though, the mother was either too religious or crazy.
Assuming she's not crazy, she maybe takes her religion too far or has really strong faith in it. As a result, she made the choice of choosing prayer over medication. Life is precious and it shouldn't be taken away from another, under any circumstances (in my opinion). So assuming the parent knew what she was doing, she should receive some form of a penalty.
If she really had faith though, there's the idea that you can't blame her 100%. Perhaps she really thought that she could do something for her child by praying.. and so, to some extent (even if not a large extent), it's justified.
However, if the parent is insane and lacks the mental capacity to realize her child is dying and needs medical attention, then perhaps the child shouldn't be with the parent and should be taken away.
I guess that sums up my thoughts. I'd go into more detail, but I guess that's enough for now :)
But putting that aside and getting to what seems to be the topic at hand, I'm not sure who should be blamed in this case or where the line should be drawn. Based on what I read, though, the mother was either too religious or crazy.
Spoiler:
Assuming she's not crazy, she maybe takes her religion too far or has really strong faith in it. As a result, she made the choice of choosing prayer over medication. Life is precious and it shouldn't be taken away from another, under any circumstances (in my opinion). So assuming the parent knew what she was doing, she should receive some form of a penalty.
If she really had faith though, there's the idea that you can't blame her 100%. Perhaps she really thought that she could do something for her child by praying.. and so, to some extent (even if not a large extent), it's justified.
However, if the parent is insane and lacks the mental capacity to realize her child is dying and needs medical attention, then perhaps the child shouldn't be with the parent and should be taken away.
I guess that sums up my thoughts. I'd go into more detail, but I guess that's enough for now :)
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Brittany
FAKKU Production Mngr
I'm all for holistic treatment. If someone has back issues, let a chiropractor have a go and see how things go before running to the doctor for pain medication.
Because in that case, all a doctor does for you with pain medication is shut off the receptors telling your body that you're in pain.
A chiropractor at least looks at your back and can adjust it.
Now, having a deadly disease or cancer isn't something you go holistic for in my opinion. Sure, eat your vitamins, do your yoga. Whatever, keep your mind positive. But take the god damn cancer treatments.
Parents are responsible for their children's health, therefore if they refuse to give them treatment, they should also be held responsible for the outcome.
If someone is given a responsibility, there should be a consequence for not following that responsibility.
They neglected the child, and obviously proved to be unworthy parents.
It's murder, and they should be arrested.
Because in that case, all a doctor does for you with pain medication is shut off the receptors telling your body that you're in pain.
A chiropractor at least looks at your back and can adjust it.
Now, having a deadly disease or cancer isn't something you go holistic for in my opinion. Sure, eat your vitamins, do your yoga. Whatever, keep your mind positive. But take the god damn cancer treatments.
Parents are responsible for their children's health, therefore if they refuse to give them treatment, they should also be held responsible for the outcome.
If someone is given a responsibility, there should be a consequence for not following that responsibility.
They neglected the child, and obviously proved to be unworthy parents.
It's murder, and they should be arrested.
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@Elder That was the first article I came across. These kinds of cases come up all the time. I can recall at least 5 from memory. One even included a mother and son who became fugitives from the police to avoid him getting court mandated cancer treatment.
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well the popular opinion is always going to be that the parents are liable for the death of their child for not doing anything more than wish really hard that god save them. And in this case I am reminded of the parable of the man who was standing on a roof during a flood and prayed for god to save him, a little while later a row boat showed up and said "get in" he said "no, god will save me" the row- boat argued with him but left. later a motor boat showed up and said "get in, we'll save you" the man said "no, god will save me" the motor boat left later too. even later a helicopter flew over him and said "climb in we'll save you" he said "no, god will save me" Eventually he died of exposure and walked into heaven where he met with god. he said to god "why didn't you save me, I prayed and prayed, but I still died". god looked at him for a second and said "what the fuck are you talking about I sent a row boat, a motor boat and a me-dammed helicopter, what more do you want asshole" (show me where in the bible it says god doesn't swear)
People inevitably expect amazing miracles from god, burning bushes, people walking on water, and miraculous healing. While god works in mysterious ways his ways are much more mundane in many ways than we realize.
That's not to say that the parents were WRONG in their prayer, but they wre wrong for relying exclusively on prayer
People inevitably expect amazing miracles from god, burning bushes, people walking on water, and miraculous healing. While god works in mysterious ways his ways are much more mundane in many ways than we realize.
That's not to say that the parents were WRONG in their prayer, but they wre wrong for relying exclusively on prayer
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Yeah, I believe the parents are liable for the child's life. True its the parent's choice to get help put once its a life and death whats best for the child should be done.
True prayer can help get someone back to good conditions. Prayer and medicine should be used together, to have faith in the medicine and that would help the person mentally and physically.
True prayer can help get someone back to good conditions. Prayer and medicine should be used together, to have faith in the medicine and that would help the person mentally and physically.
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There have been a few studies over the years that have linked religious people recovering quicker when they are told that people are praying for them but, that is recovering from surgery or other medical procedures. I'll dig up a link to one of them when I get home.
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Bah, stupid fanatics. Even my pastor loled at those kind of people. They got their priorities messed up. The main purpose of following a religion is to reach salvation, miracles are just extras. God just won't easily grant miracle to a crazy parents in Weston.
Words from my pastor that I still remember until now:
"God is not your personal miracle doctor. He can heal you with miracles but He can also use doctors and medicines. What happened with the good old 'Ora et Labora'? Do you think you can get smarter with just praying? It's the same with sickness. Nothing good will come if you just ask for God to get His ass over here and cure your son. When you have done your best, God will do the rest. Simple as that. We should ban teachings that give empty promise such as miracles like this. God doesn't need lazy stupid people who worship Him just to get his hemorrhoids cured. But it's gonna be difficult. After all, your health is more important than salvation, right? ;D"
Words from my pastor that I still remember until now:
"God is not your personal miracle doctor. He can heal you with miracles but He can also use doctors and medicines. What happened with the good old 'Ora et Labora'? Do you think you can get smarter with just praying? It's the same with sickness. Nothing good will come if you just ask for God to get His ass over here and cure your son. When you have done your best, God will do the rest. Simple as that. We should ban teachings that give empty promise such as miracles like this. God doesn't need lazy stupid people who worship Him just to get his hemorrhoids cured. But it's gonna be difficult. After all, your health is more important than salvation, right? ;D"
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Its amazing how half the people I know are so open minded and put serious thought into what they say beforehand (like you guys)yet the other half of my fellow humans are so close minded and fast to talk complete and utter nonsense.
Everybody here has shown me a new way to think and has contributed (in some shape, way, or form) to my thought process. Thanks ^_^
God gave us the gift of knowledge. Use it!
Everybody here has shown me a new way to think and has contributed (in some shape, way, or form) to my thought process. Thanks ^_^
God gave us the gift of knowledge. Use it!
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Hmm.
I've been a heathen for a number of years now, and my questionable interest have included all manner of holistics for about as long as well, and hell...
Sick?
Doctor. Go.
From my perspective and experience, most Holistic treatments, such as prayer, ritual, meditation, and the like, are most effective as supplementary treatments.
There's a whole underlying theory to how it works, but compressed, it sounds akin to:
Prayer/Ritual/Etc heals the spirit, and modern medicine heals the body. Healing only the body results in recovery, albeit at a slower rate. Healing only the spirit fucks over the body unless the ailment is so minor that the body can deal with it itself, and healing both results in a speedy recovery.
So, if your kid is suffering from something, and you refuse to solicit proper medical care under the pretense of "Jesus will save us", then I feel that counts as negligent homicide.
I've been a heathen for a number of years now, and my questionable interest have included all manner of holistics for about as long as well, and hell...
Sick?
Doctor. Go.
From my perspective and experience, most Holistic treatments, such as prayer, ritual, meditation, and the like, are most effective as supplementary treatments.
There's a whole underlying theory to how it works, but compressed, it sounds akin to:
Prayer/Ritual/Etc heals the spirit, and modern medicine heals the body. Healing only the body results in recovery, albeit at a slower rate. Healing only the spirit fucks over the body unless the ailment is so minor that the body can deal with it itself, and healing both results in a speedy recovery.
So, if your kid is suffering from something, and you refuse to solicit proper medical care under the pretense of "Jesus will save us", then I feel that counts as negligent homicide.
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Fiery_penguin_of_doom wrote...
@Elder That was the first article I came across. These kinds of cases come up all the time. I can recall at least 5 from memory. One even included a mother and son who became fugitives from the police to avoid him getting court mandated cancer treatment.Hmm, the running from police with your son didn't sound too crazy (though still crazy) until I read the part about avoiding cancer treatment. That's pretty ridiculous. Hmm, I suppose there's a lot more going on, like what was mentioned in the article, then I knew of. That makes me think I should read the newspaper more often... or perhaps stay up to date with news websites.
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Fiery_penguin_of_doom wrote...
snipDenying a child access to healthcare is just irresponsible and the guardians/parents should be dealt with accordingly.
IMO Science > Faith.
Breaking your arm and praying that it rights itself won't fix it, praying won't stop you bleeding to death after you've been shot either.
Faith is good but take it too far and it just becomes fanaticism.
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Arizth wrote...
Prayer/Ritual/Etc heals the spirit, and modern medicine heals the body. Healing only the body results in recovery, albeit at a slower rate. Healing only the spirit fucks over the body unless the ailment is so minor that the body can deal with it itself, and healing both results in a speedy recovery.Maybe this is gonna sound hard but it's how I feel about religion.
Religion is nothing but a placebo. It isn't gonna cure your cold, it isn't gonna cure your wounds, it will only gonna make you think that it cured you, and it'll be like a safezone for the bad moments.
Religion and logic don't go together. Like Rbz said once, God+Logic=lolgic (it may sound comical but it makes sense).
It's okay to have faith if it will give you motivation and strength, but for gods sake don't throw away logic/medicin just to end up screwings things up.
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Brittany
FAKKU Production Mngr
Fiery_penguin_of_doom wrote...
There have been a few studies over the years that have linked religious people recovering quicker when they are told that people are praying for them but, that is recovering from surgery or other medical procedures. I'll dig up a link to one of them when I get home.There's also scientific proof that people heal better, and have a better survival rate of cancer if they have support groups and keep a positive outlook - I'm sure you can add god in there too, but in my opinion it's all the same.
My mom didn't need god to survive cancer twice. She was just a strong willed person and knew she still had responsibilities in life to do yet.
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Heh, prayer do not work alone. God needs to use people to do it, because he don't want people to do nothing. I only know it from EWTN.
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Yes, they should be held responsible, as they are the responsible legal guardian, and withholding effective treatment from their child is and should be a criminal offence.
Freedom of religion can never trump the right to personal physical integrity. Thus,
That is the same placebo effect that occurs when care personnel allot even only as little as five minutes (!) per patient to allow the patient to voice his concerns. The latter change in communicative practice has been found to reduce post operative recovery times by 3 days on average and increase compliance drastically (10.1055/s-2004-837858, etc.). Whatever reduces patient's concerns, be it the announcement of prayer, or proper communication, is bound to help here.
However, that does not imply that it can supplant the actual treatment. It can, if anything, support it at best.
Freedom of religion can never trump the right to personal physical integrity. Thus,
as soon as they endanger any non-consenting adults or the life of somebody in their care.
seems an okay formula to me.FPOD wrote...
There have been a few studies over the years that have linked religious people recovering quicker when they are told that people are praying for them but, that is recovering from surgery or other medical procedures. I'll dig up a link to one of them when I get home.That is the same placebo effect that occurs when care personnel allot even only as little as five minutes (!) per patient to allow the patient to voice his concerns. The latter change in communicative practice has been found to reduce post operative recovery times by 3 days on average and increase compliance drastically (10.1055/s-2004-837858, etc.). Whatever reduces patient's concerns, be it the announcement of prayer, or proper communication, is bound to help here.
However, that does not imply that it can supplant the actual treatment. It can, if anything, support it at best.
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I think they should be locked up, although in some states of the US they have legislation along the lines of freedom of religion and/or health acts... Which allow parents to get away with quack medical care for their children.
There have been a fair few cases in the US where people have failed to get the proper health care for their child and used quack health care and/or prayer for their child(s). In most cases they have been convicted for manslaughter and gross negligence.
The parents usually go deeper down the rabbit hole justifying their believes in that practice, but some have indeed admitted they were wrong.
On a side note, speaking of praying for people. A study around 3 years ago was published showing that people who were prayed for while in medical care had a statistically higher death rate. Pretty ironic although is just an amusing statistic and completely worthless other than satire.
There have been a fair few cases in the US where people have failed to get the proper health care for their child and used quack health care and/or prayer for their child(s). In most cases they have been convicted for manslaughter and gross negligence.
The parents usually go deeper down the rabbit hole justifying their believes in that practice, but some have indeed admitted they were wrong.
On a side note, speaking of praying for people. A study around 3 years ago was published showing that people who were prayed for while in medical care had a statistically higher death rate. Pretty ironic although is just an amusing statistic and completely worthless other than satire.
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JELR39 wrote...
None i Go for my on will to Survive without praying nor taking some Medicine.Good luck with cancers and tumors. Especially them super viruses.