This pisses me off. No-Fly, No-Buy! Goodbye, 6th amendment!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=521403

I know alot of people here don't like guns or think people shouldn't have them. that's your belief and you're entitled to it, enough said there.

But how many of my fellow Americans agree with the Terror Watch List (AKA, the 'No fly' list)? Being put on a secret list that's practically impossible to get off and at best is an inordinate hassle whenever you want to fly somewhere? The same list that has had children, decorated airline pilots, and US Senators on it? The same list that allowed the Times Square Bomber to get on an airplane? the same list that, according to this article: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/19/tsa.watch.list/index.html?eref=rss_topstories can be circumvented by petty bribery or creative reporting of one's name? this same list that has over a million American Citizens on it? Really? We have over a million of our own national flesh and blood plotting to commit mass murder and wreak panic in the streets?

Really people. S.1317, proposed by Senator Lautenberg of NJ, would extend the 'No-Fly' list to also deny firearms transfers. First off, when was the last time we had a terrorist attack on American soil committed with firearms?
Secondly, this represents an incredibly broad-based and completely illegal attempt to curtail people's 2nd amendment rights. You are not notified of being put on the list (right to face one's accuser), and there is no clear method of petitioning to have yourself removed from the list. (right to due process). You aren't charged with any crime, you aren't even a suspect in an investigation. All that happens is that you piss off some TSA agent of a peon in the FBI misinterprets a blog post somewhere, and boom: "Sorry sir, but your NICS came back denied."


Bullshit. Bull-fucking-shit! This is such a flagrant waltz all over out 4th amendment rights. Even you non-gun owners, aren't secret lists that you can't see, aren't removal of your rights without due process, the way totalitarian governments grow? I really don't want to have to, but the more I look at it, the more I have in common with the Tea Party! Good fukkity god! I have shit in common with Sarah Fucking Palin!

Ughhh... Pissed off and worried do not make a good combo right before sleepy-time.
Please write your Senators. Urge them to oppose S.1317. Even if you hate guns, S.1317 is only a politically-correct first-step to something we really don't want to deal with.

And while your at it, ask them to oppose S.2820 as well. A gun registry didn't work in Canada, they're currently dismantling theirs. What makes you think it'll work here even more complex and overgrown?

All of those so called given rights mean absolutely dick when someone manages to get ahold of weapons/explosives they shouldn't.

Does that mean it's right to have the no-fly list and all that jazz?

Not necessarily, but at the very least, it makes some people feel like we actually have decent control over some of the shit that happens in the country.

Complain all you like, but there are always going to be lists just like this one. Rights can't save you from death. But a watchdog group, may be able to.

... Yea this one's a tricky line to walk... Firstly there's my personal dislike of guns and all those who nearly marry their firearms claiming '2nd Amendment' as protection to do what ever fun stupidity they like.

But add in my dislike of how the no fly list is being used and how they may or may not be adding names to said list, but not having a problem with the idea of a no fly list... Things just get complex... Really I don't have a problem with the idea of having a list of known threats like, I dunno, known members of terrorist cells, and if such a list existed AND it wasn't full of people with names 3 letters too close to actual confirmed terrorists, I would have no problem with preventing such people buying things that could, you know... Kill people, or at least make it more difficult...

Maaah, too many ifs and woulds and isn'ts...

BULLSHIT. This list won't protect anyone. Those in the know, those with at least an ounce of real knowledge about security have been saying so for years.

Read up on this here:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/

I don't really have much of an opinion on it because it is the one thing I care so little about that I don't even feel like taking the time to understand it to know why I hate it so much. Just one of those things where you just legitimately don't care enough to know.

With that said, I'm not convinced some arbitrary list of people is going to realistically save any country from a potential terrorist attack, much to the allusion of the Time Square incident.

I think you got your amendments mixxed up. fourth is protection against illeagal search and seizure. second is right to bear arms.

in a way, this kind of encompasses both though. to be put on a list and be scurtinized kind of seems like a violation of the fourth. aand the restriction of gun ownership would be the second ammendment.

That's what I meant. Even if you don't care about guns, S.1317 still violates the fourth amendment (and a quick wiki check, the sixth as well). It starts with guns, like I said, because it's a PC choice. But what next after we no longer have the means to enforce the other nine on the Bill of Rights?

The no fly list by itself has been challenged by the ACLU though I can't remember the outcome off the top of my head but, I suspect that they lost.



Beyond being "un-American", the list doesn’t actually help catch terrorists. Why? Because

[quote]Any watch list where it’s easy to put names on and difficult to take names off will quickly fill with false positives. These false positives eventually overwhelm any real information on the list, and soon the list does no more than flag innocents - which is what we see happening today, and why the list hasn’t resulted in any arrests.[quote]

Here is how effective the list really is in stopping terrorism.


http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/05/sky_marshals_on.html

http://www.schneier.com/essay-052.html

Forgive me citing the same guy twice but, the man knows a lot on the subject. If further evidence is needed I, Gibs or Flaser will be glad to provide.

List of rights being violated by the No-fly No-buy legislation.

The second, the Fifth, and the sixth. I'm not sure about the fourth being broken as I am not seeing any search of seizure. I guess the privacy aspect is being broken which depends on how the go about gathering their data. The fourth amendment is in a murky area of the law as "being secure in your person and papers" is interpreted as a right to privacy while others interpret the amendment as requirement for law enforcement to get a warrant to search.

I'll correct. Brain fart I guess.

United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1876) is the supreme court case that state that you must be informed of the exact nature and cause of the accusation against you.

The no fly list is basically being charged for a crime or suspected crime without being informed that you have been charged.

Edit: ACLU's case against the TSA was ruled in their favor which made the no fly list public for the first time.

I think the list itself is useless and doesn't really help anybody. Just toss the damn thing out.

That's the one! I knew I was thinking of some case that pertained to be forewarned of any accusation against you before being charged.

Yeah, the more I am reading into it currently the less I like it. Starting to look like a complete waste of time.