Kojima as a Creator/MGS rant. Whatcha think about all this?

Let's start way back in MGS1. Good game, good characters, but stuck amidst a bunch of pretentious tripe involving social commentary and some conspiracy bullshit. Right, well we could look past that and find joy in the gameplay and characters. Hell, we even swallowed the crazy clone plotline because it made for good drama. Also: neat! The endings change depending on what we do!

Then came MGS2, which is widely considered the worst MGS game made, primarily for the horrible story. There's a lot of perspectives about it, but none that Kojima intended. No one speculated "Well, what is a nation?" and "Can we really tell if our lives are not just a part of some greater pattern woven by people greater than us?". Nope. We speculated "Wait, is Raiden meant to be a mirror for the gamer who wishes they could be Snake? Is Kojima telling me to fuck off?" and "Why did this game get so stupid, so confusing, so BATSHIT INSANE? Is Kojima telling me to fuck off?"

Then we have MGS3, which is widely considered the best of the series since it has great characters and a conspiracy plot that actually kinda makes sense (in comparison to the other games? Yeah). And no more nanomachines = Deus Ex Machina bullshit! Hooray!
_But what's this? Kojima wants to walk away from MGS? ...Are you fucking joking? What about Solid Snake and Otacon and Raiden and EVERYTHING from MGS2?! You want us to just sit and play guessing games over your wackadoo nonsense?!

"Once again I'd intended for MGS3 to wrap up the series, but so many people wanted to know what happened after "2". Things like the identity of the Patriots and so forth. I had planned on leaving those mysteries as mysteries, but people weren't convinced that the series was wrapped up." -Hideo Kojima
http://www.konami.jp/mgs4/uk/interview/03.html

...Oh, you do.
...
Is Kojima trying to tell me to fuck off?

And then came the fan outrage, which is still considered a divisive topic among even the fans. Should Kojima have given into the fans and gone ahead with MGS4? Should he have put himself into the co-director seat for a game he did barely anything but bitch about in interviews during development?
_Speaking as a writer, we creators have an obligation not really just to our fans but primarily to our creations. We need to treat them with respect, as if they were our own flesh and blood. We imbue our sweat, our time, our lives into our creations and we can't just leave them incomplete. Not if we want to consider ourselves anything more than hacks.

Kojima had an obligation to the series to give it a real ending, even if it was one that would have to tackle the colossal task of answering ALL the questions Kojima's trip down crazy (aka MGS2) brought up. Now, yes, it didn't need to come with fucking death threats. That's just... What the hell, man?! Fuckin' nut cases doing death threats! But even so, it needed to be done.
Not the death threats, but the closure. Death threats are bad.

MGS4, the game that, though most rightly argue is full of retcons (like every MGS game) and has so much expository dialogue that it can drive a man mad, is considered to be the end of the MGS series. It's the end because it did what it needed to do: answer our questions (though it did so in a confusing manner) and brought closure to the characters we'd grown endeared to over the years (though it did so with a LOT of contrivances). It is flawed and at times fuckin' stupid, but it's the end.
[size=6]...I like it at least...[/h]

...Or is it?
"Metal Gear: Revengeance! Oh, boy! A story about Raiden? As a badass cyborg ninja? Well, I thought him having a family and getting a life at the end of MGS4 was great, but fuck it! I'll play along! Can't be more worse than MGS2!" - Someone other than myself.



...Someone IS telling me to fuck off!!

And then there's this:
"Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance never claimed to be a Metal Gear Solid. This is not a game about our beloved Solid Snake. It is a spinoff that tries something different. We have not yet finished with Solid Snake, despite the fact that I wanted to let him die at the end of Guns of the Patriots." - Kojima
http://www.gamesradar.com/metal-gear-solid-5-apparently-confirmed-kojima/

So MGS4 is not the end, and Kojima doesn't give a fuck.

[color=red]EDIT[/color]: Change of perspective and change of speaking, mates. Enough of you have managed to turn me around as the more literate of you have pointed out something rather obvious I missed in my blind ranting argument here: That, considering Konami is indeed in charge with MGS, and considering the state of the gaming industry these days (what with the recession and all), it's likely Konami will not let Kojima move on from MGS any time soon.
Also, I made a mistake in reading his words as him blaming the fans when he actually hasn't [size=5]yet[/h]. I changed the topic title to reflect the change.

So the topic is still open about Kojima as a creator and whether MGS should end, but I apologize for the rant regarding him AND the ending. Still think he's a dick, but a tragic one.

For those of you who actually have something to say: What do you guys think?

Yay, Kojima thread. He is so moe.

Son, you need to think less and play more. You rant too much.

If you ask me though, Kojima, as a creator, shouldn't have to listen to fans, and he's not "obligated" to give us shit if he doesn't feel like it. I believe he is being kept on the franchise for too long (possibly by Konami and the fans), and he needs to get his ass over to Zone of the Enders 3 instead.

I honestly don't understand all this hatred for Revengeance, since it was meant from the start to be over the top action. Sure, you can rant all you want that it lacks the "spirit of the previous Metal Gears", but you can't deny that it's canon and part of the Metal Gear franchise. Some people don't like it and want the stealth, others loved it (as seen in how public and critics reacted to the game), and that's it, end of story. As far as I can tell, Solid Snake's adventures ended with Guns of the Patriots, unless he too pumps himself full of nanomachines and comes back fighting as an elderly badass.

And by the way, I agree with what art said, it's about time Konami focused more on the next ZOE (by the way, don't they have MGS Ground Zeroes in the works as well?).

You know, I can accept that nanomachines kept Vamp alive and that high tech boots let him run up walls. I can also accept that Fortune had a strong connection to the force. But what I can never forget, considering the retcons for Vamp, is that during the battle with him in MGS2, he could paralyze Raiden by throwing a knife at his shadow. Fuck off, Kojima.



As opposed to the other MGS games?

I may not agree with some of the other things you said, but I'm all for this right here, mate. All for it.



Mate, once something loses it's feeling, its soul, it loses its right to be called a part of the series it came from.
But even so, considering how the series has really become MGS:Retcon with each new installment, I think by now even a fan fiction can be considered canon.


Well for one that can't happen since MGS4 said again and again that he's aging to death and nothing can stop it. At all.
Secondly, did you even read what I posted in the OP? About Kojima saying Solid Snake's story isn't over? Or are you, like the rest of us, just scratching your head over how and why the fuck Kojima is bringing him back?


Supposedly so, but we'll see what's what after the GDC next week.
And as I mentioned before, I'm all aboard Kojima starting ZOE3 finally. Even though it's a game series stuck with big dick robots.
"Cockpit! Get it?" Oh Kojima, you're such a fuckin' card...



Fuck me I forgot about that! I remember my cousin cussing up a storm when we were younger over that shit.



hah Touche.
But don't forget, no prior MGS game had power point sections dedicated solely to trying to make sense of what the hell was going on.

I prefer to think like this.. you like it you buy it.. If you dont like it dont buy it..

I wanted to get into MGS so I bought the HD collection but the controls are just terrible for 2 and 3 (not as bad in 3 as 2). I couldn't play 2 at all I did try to just put up with it but I got to a point where the game saved where I had no ammo and I was surrounded by enemies so I shelved it cause I was going to start all over again and I wasn't going to put up with it any more. and for 3 every time I aim and shoot the gun gets put away and I have to take the gun back out and aim again it's just so fiddly.

[font=Verdana]I haven't personally played MGS series, but for someone who creates something, it's the right thing to avoid fanservices most of the time. Kojima has plans too, ya know.[/font]

To be honest, I couldn't care less if Kojima brought back Solid Snake or not, or that he's blaming the fandom for "forcing him" to create new Metal Gear games with Snake as the protagonist or some other sh*t. The franchise was a success and became a HUGE cash cow, so who but Konami itself was all too happy to milk it dry? And by the way, Kojima can say that the sky is black and the Sun is white and I still couldn't care less. He may be saying the truth, or he may be just trolling with the fandom, and if he is, then he won't do anything, and in the end the fandom will just whine for a bit before settling down quietly and keep playing.

Then again, one thing is certain. You don't like a game because it's not (in your opinion of course) enjoyable like the ones that came before in the same franchise? Don't play it, no one is forcing you.

I believe his excuses was Konami itself and not the fans.

I have to agree and I'm sorry for the mistake. But then again, Kojima DOES work for Konami in the end, so unless he's getting fired or he wants to move to another company, he'll have to do what Konami demands. And Konami (at least, judging by those quotes from Kojima himself) apparently hasn't milked enough from Metal Gear.

At this point, IMHO the only intelligent thing Kojima could do, aside making ZOE 3, is developing a remake of the first MG games (the original Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land stories), that would be interesting, and no problems with bringing back an old, dying Solid Snake, since they will be prequels. Of course, it's purely speculation on my part.

So like... replace MGS with say... Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts and I would bet you wouldn't complain about that right? Those two series are done. By about 50 games ago.

um yea..

Also do you even have a source for the assumed 'widely claimed' parts of your argument? I mean, if it was 'widely claimed' that most people hated MGS 2 then would it make sense to also say that not many people played MGS 3? I mean, who would buy the next game in a series if they were already burned by the last one?


Anyway, I liked MGS 2, 3, MGR, Acid, etc etc. I think it is interesting. The original ending to MGS 4 [Otacon and Snake tried for war crimes] seemed a bit abrupt, probably why konami is asking for more. I mean it isn't something like Killer 7, Deadly Premonition, Indigo Prophecy, Myst etc. with how their answers are set up [they are easily found if you take a second look through the game]. He simply wanted a abrupt end to it and most people weren't okay with being given what is basically half of a story.

I honestly think that would be preferable to anything MGS5 will be. I had thought of that a while back and wondered why he wouldn't be willing to do that. Both new and old fans would adore it and, as you said, it wouldn't retcon or contradict the end of the series. Clever, mate. I'm totally in agreement there.

And I understand Konami is in charge, but with the clout Kojima has in the industry these days I find it hard to believe he's that much of a slave to their whim. I'm certain he could think up an alternative, like the one you just mentioned, and yet he plans to continue the series and keep Snake around longer.



I...I don't even...
What are you talking about? What does FF or KH have anything to do with anything here? Do you mean would I have a problem with the retconning? Because I still would (if I still cared about either of those franchises). Or do you mean would I have a problem with KH's never-ending story?
If the story has an ending, and the creator keeps thinking up contrivances to bring the series back after the ending, it is something I'm against.

Ex: If, God forbid, they made a new Cowboy Bebop series but it was a sequel series where Spike Spiegel is brought back through the miracle of science, it could work in that universe (plenty of cyborgs, ay, Jet?) but it would undermine the ending the series originally had. The impact of its denouement would become entirely hollow and ruined.
_Similarly, I'm an MGS fan. I love Snake and really dug Otacon from the start. I was overjoyed to see such closure for Raiden and happy to see Maryl and Campbell reunited (though now they were father/daughter which was odd but I rolled with it). I truly enjoy these characters and would keep playing games starring them...if it felt right. MGS4 was the end for them. Revengeance was a silly fun diversion for most and I understand that (don't agree, but I understand). But to make an MGS game with any of these characters in starring roles, especially starring Snake, would ruin the end of MGS4.
-I mean, not personally since I would ignore it, but conceptually and from a "canon" standpoint.

Also, FF isn't a series like KH but just a franchise. Except for the XIII nonsense all of the FF games are independent of one another (from what I remember. Haven't played them in ages, not since FF6).

So just answer me this: Why can't there be a new Metal Gear game with a whole new cast, directed and written by Kojima and company? Or if not that, then something like pihip suggested above?


Firslty, people bought the next MGS game because it was the next MGS game.
Secondly, I'm sure you've been in the MGS fandom long enough to get this feeling. Forums, message boards, comments, commentators, etc. most all agree that MGS2 is the weakest of the four games and all for either the same or similar reasons. Haven't you seen enough "bullshit ending" and "wtf is this even?!" comments involving the MGS2 game over the years?
It seems people like MGS3 more because of its story, its setting, and because of it's general theme and feel. It also seemed to have brought in more people who were put off by MGS2 and/or never played MGS1, as you'll find more people saying the "futuristic" advantages in MGS4 didn't appeal to them in comparison.

If you like MGS2 then good on you. It had some good points I'll say, with Raiden being one of them. I liked him even when the people were calling him gay and a poor substitute for Snake. He was a different character from Snake, and I appreciated that. I also liked his backstory and felt for him.
There's plenty wrong with MGS4 but I still find it to be my favorite MGS game.



Exactly, mate! That's exactly my point. Don't you think that's wrong?

Zelda is the same three characters over and over, it's like what, 3 or 4 games WITHOUT Link, Zelda and Ganon? Hell, Ganon even came to play in Four Swords.

Tomb Raider got an "origin" story out of nowhere.

Mario games keep using the same stupid plot of saving the princess.


So why are they all allowed to use the same characters? Why not just move on to a different character or a new one?

All big franchises fail miserably when they try to get new characters in anyway, we all saw the problem with MGS2 and the only reason a lot of people like Raiden now is due to the fact that he's a badass cyborg ninja.

Doesn't matter how good of a story there is and how perfect an ending can get, people still want the characters they have known for years to be back.

Firstly, Zelda kinda sorta does star a different protagonist, but that silly/somewhat clever bit aside, it does star a different cast every game. The only two mainstays are the princess, the hero, and ganon, thus finding a way to make new stories but with the same familiar characters.
It's pretty clever, I'd say, though you're right about:


I suppose that's what it is, isn't it? Due to the backlash in MGS2 with Raiden, Kojima will likely never again try a different protagonist and cast in a Metal Gear game.

Problem is that Raiden was shat on because the game pulled him out of left field. It started with Snake, as we all expected, but then surprises us with a vastly different protagonist. We wanted to play as Snake, not be tricked with Raiden (though I grew to like him).

I believe that if, presented in the right manner from the beginning (without being tricked), people wouldn't be averse to playing as someone else with a different cast. Not like Zelda, but like a series starting anew.
People are scared of change, but when change is done right people appreciate it.

Though I suppose going at Kojima alone isn't entirely fair, since I doubt anyone will try a change at this point in the gaming industry. It's not exactly in the best shape for anybody to be trying new things...

Also: Mario games bewilder me, and I am astonished people even get in a tizzy about the storylines to them. Honestly. I can't answer you there. I'd agree with what you said about "familiarity breeding consumer comfort which turns a profit".
...It's not your words but it's pretty much what you said. You hit the nail on the head there.

That's also without mentioning the death threats over MGS4.

People are overly protective over stupid things and I think South Park said it best with the "Star Wars rights debate" episode. Where people would care more on what Star Wars movies get made COMPARED TO CORRUPTION IN THE GOVERNMENT OF YOUR OWN COUNTRY.

As far as I'm concerned MGS4 was a masterpiece. I will welcome at least TWO THOUSAND more MGS titles before I kill myself. I might have a problem if they were sticking to the same shit, but the fact that the games always turn out to be wonderful for the most part. Who is to say when a series should end? The man himself. If you got a problem because you think a series should be over you're a self entitled prick that needs to shut his fucking mouth and turn your head the other way in ignorance.


Or you can keep voicing your opinion which you probably prefer.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/6994-Metal-Gear-Rising-Revengeance

"Hideo Kojima didn't direct or write MGR:R. His only role was that of creative supervisor. He approved the script and gameplay ideas that Kojima Productions and Platinum Games came up with, but he wasn't directly involved in making the game."

Comments section.

Rather Kojima wants to continue the series or not, it's not his choice, he does not own Metal Gear's Ip, Konami does, and he is contracted with them to do as they will. If fans love Metal Gear, Konami will keep milking them, and Kojima will keep having to make them or quit his gaming production medium/group he spent years to make.

Honestly, as someone who wants to create, I would find it to be excruciating to have people demand "only" the same 2 IP's from me over and over. I'm sure Kojima has other things he would love the chance to produce, but investors always favor proven success over blind bets. It may be a bit misdirected but I can sympathize with his frustration in his fan base only demanding MGS or ZoE. Don't get me wrong, I honestly would welcome anything he puts his heart into, but only if he did it because "he" wanted too.

I really do want to see what else happens in Kojima's head, what other stories could he have created in the decade of working on MGS. But no one would support that (fans haven't from what I've seen, no one in the tread seems to want anything other than MGS or ZoE), creators really do not have that much free will or liberty to just, pick up and start, whatever they want. Ultimately creators are bent over backwards for their investors or cut.