Honorifics in Translations

ShaggyJebus · 2009-10-29T05:05:00-01:00

What do you think about honorifics being used in translations? For those who don't know, honorifics are things added to names and such that describe what the person is. (Crappy definition, but I think everyone knows what I mean.) Examples include -san, -kun, -chan, -sama, etc. Sometimes, I'll see people bitching about fansub groups leaving honorifics in. Personally, I love when the honorifics are left in because it helps me get a better understanding of the relationships of the characters. Also, it's weird to hear "Akira-san" and read "Mr. Akira." (It's really fucking weird to heard "Sensei" and read "Ms. Kitamura.") The American release of the Genshiken manga is my favorite American release for this reason; it includes honorifics and explains what they are at the end of each volume, and I gain a much better understanding of how the characters view one another. When one character refers to another with "-kun" instead of "-san," I immediately know that a bit of politeness, or stuffiness, is gone, and they are closer. And while I understand that some may consider this to be a bit weeaboo, those people can suck a dick. I prefer literal translations that get the full message across. Not out of a desire to be more Japanese than American, but a desire to tear down as many walls as possible and enjoy things as best I can. (Sorry, that sounds like preaching, but I do feel the need to defend myself on this issue.) Anyways, what do you think? Would you prefer honorifics to be left untranslated ("Saki-chan" being simply "Saki")? Do you appreciate them when they are left in? Or do you think they should always be left in?

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Sindalf Used to do stuff

15 years ago

ShaggyJebus wrote...

For those saying that the English equivalent should be found and honorifics dropped, I have to ask - how?

Like unsigned said, if a literal translation is done, it can sound weird, because in English, people don't say, "Sister Nami" or "Brother Luke." If someone does say that in English, it's really weird. Leaving out the "sister" or "brother" actually sounds better, but then nothing is resolved because the honorifics have simply been dropped instead of being translated.

Also, often in Japanese, the honorific "-san" will be used for classmates, people of the same age that know each other but aren't close friends. If translated literally, students will be calling each other "Mr. Satoshi" and "Ms. Kakuji." Of course, that's the same problem as above, with it sounded very odd in English. But how can you show in English that the students know each other but aren't close? Actions are important, but isn't speaking a certain way an act? An author may be using the honorifics to illustrate the relationships between the characters, instead of having them talk for five minutes. If that action is omitted, things may become unclear.

Let's say you have two characters, Akira and Tetsuo. They are friends, but Akira always says "Tetsuo-san." One day, something happens, and they get really close. Akira looks at him and says, "Tetsuo-kun." There has been a shift in their friendship, but no indication of it other than the change of honorific. How should that be translated into English? Should Akira go from saying "Mr. Tetsuo" to just "Tetsuo"?

>implying san means mr...

Honorifics can mean a variety of things. Also in your setting which is slice of life they should be left in. The translation depends on the story and just have deep things are. It's not exactly an easy thing to do anyway.

No one should ever translate literally anyway. It NEVER comes out properly. FUN FACT2: The most respected fansub groups don't translate literally or at least do their best to stay away from such things with a few editing exceptions.

Lamz0r wrote...

I totally understand why the translators want to use honorifics and just copypasta TLNote.

I wish someone added TLnotes for those back when I first started watching anime. I didn't know what they meant at first, but honestly TL notes are stupid. They are distracting and show the TL was being lazy. Should be avoided if all possible.

ZeroOBK

15 years ago

pumpkin king wrote...

Couldn't care less if they have them or not.
You can normally tell the relationship between characters with how the act the honourifics dont define it.

This. Also, since most of us have a hard-on for Japanese dubs, it's not like we can't hear the -sans, -kuns, -chans, -etc. anyway. Of course, for manga, it's a different story, but it's still not a big deal.

ShaggyJebus

15 years ago

Sindalf wrote...

No one should ever translate literally anyway. It NEVER comes out properly. FUN FACT2: The most respected fansub groups don't translate literally or at least do their best to stay away from such things with a few editing exceptions.

I'm changing gears a bit, but why are literal translations bad? Everything won't come out properly, but isn't being less literal going to make things come out even worse?

Also, regarding groups that translate literally being less respected, isn't it important to remember who gives out the respect? The masses of anime fandom, internet fans who may know absolutely nothing about anime except that Naruto throws balls of energy, and the K-ON girls like to play music. Saying that those groups are doing the right thing by being less literal is like saying that pop music (Britney Spears and the like) is the best form of music, because it gets played most often on the radio and gets the highest record sales.

In the end, I think it comes down to what the person wants, ease of reading/watching or a feeling of true understanding. (That doesn't sound the way I want it to; no offense to anybody.) I like translation notes because I like the know what I am seeing, to understand the cultural aspect of things instead of just the enjoyment of it. That's why I'd rather someone translate the name of a Japanese dish and have a translation note explaining what it is than see them call it something an English-speaking person would recognize. It makes it a little harder to watch, because you might have to pause to read the note or do a little research on your own, but it's not trying to cover up the fact that the show is from a foreign country.

Another thing I thought of regards whether honorifics should be in anime/manga. I realized that with anime it doesn't matter much because, as several people have said, you can hear it and understand the honorifics that way. But when it comes to manga, there is no way of doing that (unless you track down a raw version and learn enough Japanese to try to figure out what's what). This doesn't upset me, but it does make me treasure the scanlations (and official translations) that do include honorifics, of which there are only a few. And it makes me wonder why a lot of translators for shonen series leave the Japanese names of attacks as are but don't put in honorifics.

isiana

15 years ago

I think some translators remove honorifics because they think honorifics will confuse people.

ZeroOBK

15 years ago

ShaggyJebus wrote...

Sindalf wrote...

I'm changing gears a bit, but why are literal translations bad? Everything won't come out properly, but isn't being less literal going to make things come out even worse?

Babelfish and other online translators are literal. I rest my case.

Dirty

15 years ago

I rather have the honorifics in them.

For example, I saw the first season of 'Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu' where Mika was saying 'Onii-san' all the time and it also got literally translated that way. Now Crunchyroll decided to translate it as 'cute boy' or something. Really annoys me.

GinIchimaru_09

15 years ago

Aw now this is a good discussion and great topic!

Personally I HATE with a fiery passion when translators leave anything un-translated, but I'll try and stick with Honorifics.

Warning wall of text.

Spoiler:

The biggest issue with not translating them is that there aren't any in English so when you’re translating it makes no sense to leave them in. In English I would say “Hey Jane” regardless of how I feel to her (unless I use a nickname or something like that), I wouldn’t use “Hey Jane-kun” or Jane-san because they are not used in English. Honorifics can easily be replaced just by the actions and mood of the person. If you needed honorifics to understand something in English then we would have them.

Xil wrote...

You are reading something based off of Japanese culture. It just feels weird when that is taken away and replaced by the shitty alternative(English).

So you like your "translations" more like this? ã°ã‹ã’ã¦ã„ã‚‹æœªç¿»è¨³ã®ã™ã¹ã¦ã®æ–¹æ³•ã§ã™

You are translating your goal is to translate not just leave the other language in, and you can still feel the Japanese culture in the work even without the honorifics. It's not changing the work just translating like they are supposed to be doing.

ShaggyJebus wrote...

Like unsigned said, if a literal translation is done, it can sound weird, because in English, people don't say, "Sister Nami" or "Brother Luke." If someone does say that in English, it's really weird. Leaving out the "sister" or "brother" actually sounds better, but then nothing is resolved because the honorifics have simply been dropped instead of being translated.

But they are translated because English doesn’t have honorifics so just dropping them in some cases translates them by itself. In English you would say “Hey Nami can you pass the Bread?”. No one would say “Hey Nami-san can you pass the bread in English. You could translate it in a different way like instead of “Hey sister Nami can you pass the bread?” how about “Hey sis can you pass the bread?” If you’re willing to do the work and actually translate you can translate just about everything.

ShaggyJebus wrote...

One day, something happens, and they get really close. Akira looks at him and says, "Tetsuo-kun." There has been a shift in their friendship, but no indication of it other than the change of honorific. How should that be translated into English? Should Akira go from saying "Mr. Tetsuo" to just "Tetsuo"?

First to say that only the way he says the guys name change seems pretty unbelievable, but I’ll role with the example. First your example works fine as it changes their level of formality. If they were friends he wouldn’t be using Mr. just Tetsuo. As gibbous said one way is changing from last to first name or even in reverse can work to convey the meaning.

Sindalf wrote...

I didn't know what they meant at first, but honestly TL notes are stupid. They are distracting and show the TL was being lazy. Should be avoided if all possible.

I disagree if a translator must pussy out and leave Japanese in, then TL notes in the end or on a text file with the anime/manga, should be included so that someone can understand what is going on. Though it would beg the question if he can explain it why wouldn’t he have just translated it in the first place?

In the end its hard work, but it’s the people who actually translate and don’t cut corners and complain by saying it’s too hard or impossible. That separates the good translators from the bad ones. Though it’s up to them not us so whatever they want they do. Well at least until I learn Japanese and don’t need their half-assed translations.

Spoiler:

sharkmaster

15 years ago

i see it more as a extra though if you know the general meaning of the honorifics then yah it won't realy mater anyway but still its nice to see it tagged on.

ZeroOBK

15 years ago

Dirty wrote...

I never noticed that, though I think it's in-line with Mika's teasing personality. What's really bothered me is that in a recent episode of Haruka S2, "tsundere" was translated as "grumpy grumps". I mean "tsundere" is definitely a bitch of a word to translate, but "grumpy grumps" is just so wrong.

Remilia

15 years ago

I prefer it when the honorifics are left untranslated in the subs. It adds a little bit of information, IMO, like with the example of 'san' and 'kun'. You can tell by just that that one character grew closer to another.

With dubs however, it would be better if they translate it. It sounds pretty weird to me, actually. Luckily I don't watch dubs.

KingRat

15 years ago

I guess I prefer honorifics being left in, but there's just something about Amelia from Slayers saying "Mr. Zelgadis", as opposed to Zelgadis-san or whatever she originally says, that I like.

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