Dishonesty, do you still practice it?

Title speaks the intention. I used to attempt lying whenever it was convenient, though I was rarely convincing enough to get away with it for long. It was around the time I was in high school that I finally realized that I was just terrible at lying, no matter how hard I tried. So I stopped lying, both because I learned to hate dishonesty, and because I sucked at it anyway. But what about the rest of you? Do you have skill in deception? Or is it like my circumstances?

Do I practice it , no, I am a natural talent when it comes to being dishonest. However, I don't practice it at all, no reason to lie to anyone just to defend myself. Lying will only put me on a level below them and makes them think that I am scared of them or something.

I don't make problems, therefore I don't need to lie, and therefore nobody has a reason to look at me funny, because I am too good for it.

I was never very partial to lying, I withheld the truth, as a child, but never lied to people, never saw any value in it. As for the withholding truth, I always succumb to guilt resulting in me telling the truth anyways. The few times I didn't was back in high school, in which I spent a lot of time in a very intelligent, yet arrogant and often condescending, crowd and out of fear of coming off as unintelligent, I often acted as if I fully understood the discussion and often backed away from challenging the loudest in the group, despite my conflicting opinion, in place of accepting theirs as "right".

It was also around this time, high school, that I realize lying won't get me anywhere. That eventually my lies catch up to me and it makes things all the much harder with the added explanation for the lie. I don't know if this affected my interaction with the group, but the group had mostly started to fall apart anyways, near the end, the loudest of the group kept fighting too much and lead to a "falling out".

Since then though, I don't bother lying, unless it's to prevent worry. "How's your leg?", "it's fine, I don't feel anything (my motherf*^^ing leg hurts dammit f&65ing god you will pay for this!!!) ~smiles~" .

The only other exception, is my step father, who, if we have clashing opinions, which is everything, because I am younger than him, therefore, I can't possibly know anything more than him. I have to act ignorant, undefiant, and agreeable with, often times involves holding back or lying to myself. But the other side involves great (possibly physical, as was often the case as a child) conflict. Really doesn't help that he believes he understands everything while everyone else understands nothing... I must be doomed to be under toe of condescension.

I think it was my step dad that gave lying the incredible negative connotation that I hold it too. I hated having to lie to myself for the sake of his ego, I hated lying... (Super interesting... I had no idea about this!!!)

Turned out to be a bit of venting/bitching... I think I answered your question in there... I'm really happy with the discovery.

Yes, I still lie.

I don't believe lying is inherently wrong, as many people claim it is. I think that the negative connotation comes about because of most of the time, if somebody finds out you're lying, chances are you were hiding it because you had done something bad, or were planning to etc. Basically you were lying for the wrong reasons. To protect yourself, for example. And I do think this sort of lying is (mostly) wrong.

But there are many other types of lies. Lies to stop others worrying, lies to protect others (physically or emotionally), lies to make people happy, lies to help yourself deal with something. These types of lies are not wrong, in fact most of the time they are a good thing to do. For instance, if someone you don't like confessed to you, don't you think it would be nicer to turn them down with some reason other than 'I don't like you'?

There are also lies which really don't have any bearing on morality, and are just to adhere to socially acceptable conversation or to avoid meaningless conversation. If your parents asked you what you did Friday night, would you honestly answer 'I masturbated to some incestuous hentai' even if that was the truth? Would you ever tell you're girlfriends parents 'I have licked your daughters nipples'? I for one would certainly not, unless I was very, very drunk.

Of course, it helps that I am a pretty good liar. When I was young, I lied all the time, and my brother often got into trouble because of it (I was kind of a little shit back then). It was something I very quickly perfected, and at that point I was doing it for the wrong reasons. But it has helped me now I have a better grasp of right and wrong when it comes to lies.

I still lie but it is more of just a game these days.

I always had a way of twisting a lie to make it sound believable, but you would think people who know me know wouldn't trust everything I say. Now I don't really lie about big things just small things that are able to make people laugh later. Like telling telling new people at my job that these two other people are married. Not really hard just have a straight face or show the emotion that would go with that lie.

[color=#FF1493]if i said i didn't lie at all, that would be a, well, lie. ; v ;
but i try not to lie unless i feel it's necessary, which... isn't very often at all. the most i probably do, consciously, is masking emotions and trying to stay cheerful (even if i feel otherwise) so i don't make trouble for others.

i have no talent for it and no desire to do it.

I've never had to "practice." To be honest, that sounds ridiculous.

But uh... You see, the thing about lying is...... You never, ever, reveal that it was a lie. Ever.

I wouldn't say I lie, specifically, it's just that I find it hard to get my point across and people misinterpret it as something else and accuse me of lying as a result.
That being said I still lie about certain things, mainly for comedic effect like bending the truth or over-exaggerating something to make it seem funny.

I also used to lie in the past A LOT but I've kinda grown a sense of morality and guilt since so I rarely lie any more unless it's to protect the feelings of those around me or because I'm afraid of what someone may think of the truth.

That being said when I lie I'm pretty skilled in it. ;)

A few people have mentioned "benign lies". While I won't argue with their stance on the matter, my current position is the extreme opposite. Meaning "harmful truths", which means that I tell the truth in a rather agitating way. I figure that there's no point in trying to sugar-coat certain subjects that really don't need it. It makes people angry, I know that much, but I could care less on what their reactions are. For me, sugar-coating the truths I speak makes it less than it is. And I hate making understatements.

[color=#FF1493]while i don't necessarily disagree, i think for most people it's more like "tact", rather than an "understatement". but since you don't care about people's responses and reactions to whatever you're saying, you're free to disregard that and say things however you like. for most people, though, they want to avoid causing harmful or upsetting reactions as much as they can, and i wouldn't consider trying to do so less of a truth or a watered-down version of one.

ps. sorry if i misunderstood you, just wanted to give a view from the other side of your scale! c:

I do lie, but most of the time its just too much work, and since i am inherintly lazy, i usually tell the truth just so i can get back to my laptop.

Only in a social context and only a very specific form of lie. In other words, I don't really lie to my advantage by manipulation, I simply attempt to utter ambiguous sentences that are, technically, true. The only example I can remember doesn't fit with me but just for clarity: Say you're in high school. You go to school and since it's such a beautiful day, you decide to skip class and hang out with your friends. At the end of the day, your mom asks: did you go to school today? Should you answer yes, it will be true but dishonest.

So that's more or less where I stand even though I only do that in rare occasions. I don't do something as morally disgusting as making promises we intend not to keep which some people do and it makes my soul want to puke even when the promises are trivial things.

Morality doesn't have a universal definition, often times it's contradicting and shifting based off the situation and circumstances.

I would grant you the statement "lying is absent of morality in and by itself".

Can you really claim, that hurting others doesn't hurts yourself, such as disappointing a parent/peer, by extension, that lying to not hurt others involves trying to not hurt yourself? That often times, attempts to hurt others is brought about by being hurt. And that people find it easier to hurt strangers over those closest to them for how big of an emotional backlash causes in personal pain.



Your masturbation example, is an example of trying to protect your social bonds and emotions from being damaged, but an unwillingness to drop something others see as socially unacceptable but you don't share those views with them. An example of a difference in morality.



..and..



I figure you both might give me the opposite answer, but I'd like to pose a conflict I, personally, don't have an answer for, even after 10 years.

A game I played awhile back, I won't use the name, if you know the scene, then you know it, if you don't, it doesn't count as a spoiler, either way, it's an old game and a minor scene in scope of the games length.

In the game, a character, a young girl, is possessed by a monster intending to kill the entire village. In an attempt to save his daughter, the father tries to talk her out of her possession. She proceeds to slay him. The players party fights and defeats her, expelling the monster, but the toll on her body has pushed her past being saved from death. As she dies in the party's arms, unable to see, she ask of her fathers, lying not too far from her, well being, only remembering her fathers presence within her possession.

It is here that a prompt comes up... Tell her the well being of her father, as she dies, the fact that she had killed her father in her possessed state. Or, tell her a lie, making her last moments a complete lie, sending her off with a false sense of security that can never be taken back, a lie the perpetrator has to live with their entire life with.

(Side note, as for the specific context of the prompt, I can't remember (been 6-7 years, and again, was minor in comparison to the overall story) but the above serves it's purpose well enough so I am using it.)

My question is this, what would you give as an answer, and why would you give it, does it completely agree with all your perceptions of morality (that applies to this situation)?

As much as I hate to admit it, I am a huge liar. I probably spit out more lies than truths. What I am confused about myself is the fact that most of my lies have no clear intention. For example, I practiced dishonesty quite a lot when I was young for my personal benefits. I would lie to adults about doing something bad so that I wouldn't get into trouble. Another instance would be when I lied to my friends, so I could attract their attention. Now that I am older and more mature, I do not have such intentions. However, it is most likely due to the fact that I practiced dishonesty so much when I was young, that I currently have a bad habit of lying for no reason at all. For instance, if someone asks me where I bought my jacket, I would immediately lie without hesitation by saying that a friend of mine gifted me, when I clearly know that I bought it at a mall myself. One more example would be when someone asks me what I had for lunch, I would answer them by telling them that I had pasta, when I know I had steak instead. On top of that, I feel really bad about myself when I lie, because I lie so well with straight face that no one has yet to figure out this bad habit of mine.

Honestly, I feel as if lying comes to me naturally. I mean, deception is something I feel I can do easily without missing a beat and is something I do regularly (although its probably not something I should be proud of)(also probably why I always win in Bullshit but that's not really something to be proud of either). I believe that dishonesty is necessary in society.

Forgive me for going slightly off topic here but this is quite similar to violence. Everyone frowns upon the use of it, but in the end the entire justice system relies on it. Without the use of force, convicted criminals could just ignore their penalties. Although this wasn't a particularly good example, dishonesty is similar in the way our social interactions work. Without dishonesty, our society would be all over the place.

As for the morality of dishonesty, rather than how we use it, we should be looking at the outcome it's use. Will using dishonesty let you to avoid unnecessary conflict? Will it make someone happy? But also, Will you hurt someone? What is going to be the price of being dishonest? Will your lies come back to "bite" you? I believe the key to using deception is to ask yourself these questions. The morality of our dishonesty lies (pun not intended) in the balance of how much it relates to these questions.

EDIT: Oh also, to pose a question, is not stating the truth lying?

All outcomes cannot be foreseen. If morality, in context to lying, is based on this scale, does the scale have a time range, such as, immediate/foreseeable future only?

And if the lie will come back to hurt the liar, how does that weigh on morality?



That's known as "Lying by Omission" (took me a few days to remember this).

Then theirs "Dissimulation" (just learned of this one) which is a form of deception, of which "deception" is synonymous with "lying".

So yes, by definition, it is.

Yes, that's true. Morality is entirely subjective. Normally when we use words like 'good', 'bad' or 'morality', we are referring to our own opinions on the matter. So, generally, unless I state otherwise, I refer to my own sense of what's 'good' and 'bad', which you are welcome to disagree with.



In some cases, where someone is especially angry or frustrated, it may actually hurt them to lie to preserve others feelings. But yes, humans being emphatic creatures by nature are often distressed by seeing others in pain. But the outcome of the lie is not necessarily the intention of the lie. You could easily cause someone pain by lying, even if the lie was made to protect them. I would say in that case the lie was not morally wrong, but they simply did something wrong along the route they took.

Similarly, when you lie in order to protect someone, it is who you are thinking about when you make the lie (or decision to do so) which would decide whether or not it is selfless or not. If you think 'I don't want them to be sad' then you are thinking more about them than if you think 'I don't want to see them sad'. That's not really a good example, but it's hard to put what people think about those sorts of things into words.



What I was really going for with that was kind of a 'lying out of laziness' kind of thing. I'm fine having discussions about socially unacceptable points. I could easily clear up any misunderstanding about it if I told my parents I'd masturbated to incestuous hentai. But it's something that would take up some amount of effort, and effort is something I want to expend as little of as possible. I'm not lying to cause harm, or to protect anyone, but just lying because it is more convenient to do so.



If I liked her character, then I would definitely tell her. What does it matter if she dies believing a lie? I would rather she died in happiness than died in emotional turmoil over the guilt and pain of killing her father.

Frankly I would feel far more guilt having told her the truth and allowed her to have such a terrible final moment than if I had lied.

Depends on circumstance. If its regards to my sexual orientation/experience/past relationships, then im always 100% honest (but who the hell cares about any of that).

But other than that, yes quite a bit. Mostly its regarding my activities, and connections to various people (if right about now you began thinking that im talking about illegal shit, stahp. right now. i just dont like people to be informed about every time i break wind or talk to someone, lol).

But even though everybody irl knows that i am withholding a lot of info and they always suspect me of something (even though there is nothing going on, ever), it is also common knowledge that i can be trusted with money. If i borrow even large sums of money, i always pay them back, no matter how long it takes.



So in my case it would be like this:

me: "Yo buddy waddup? Can you loan me $5k? I wanna buy my son a car for his 18th b-day"

buddy: "Bullshit man, you dont have a son. But since i know you will pay me back, here you go."

me: "thanks bro, ill suck your dick as interest"

buddy: " (-_-')...No thanks, im good......*backs away slowly while covering groin with hands* "

Not all decisions are made consciously, or should I disregard the unconscious mind for this conversation.



To protect without being asked of, is to impose one's own opinion of "necessity for" onto another, while may seem noble, it really doesn't involve consideration of the others opinion in the matter.

Even the "I don't want them to be sad" is a desire that only encompasses one person's feelings and desires (depending on context). Rather their happy or sad, it is theirs to feel. Any attempt to manipulate has self interest in it.

(Side note, all of which I don't see as inherently good or bad. Taking care of others is as much for ourselves as it is for others, imo.)



Fair enough, my mistake.



The final moments would have been a lie then. Is a fake truth worth more than a harsh reality, or does truth outweigh fantasy? For me, this was the dilemma. Does lying, so that I can feel good that she dies happy, count as an acceptable answer. Or does telling the truth out of a desire of making her last moments alive sincere, really makes her last moments significant enough to outweigh the added pain she may die with.

As an added idea, as an stoic person, indifferent to the emotions of one's self and others, the answer would always be the truth. Though emotions are inherent in humans, though that doesn't trow the balance into the other scale.

When I had contemplated the choice you made, back then, I concluded that it conveys a disrespect for her final desire in place for what the player (in my case me) deems to be of greater importance, inferring my belief, that her happiness was more important than the truth, over her desire for.

And to contemplate on it more, because I am that kind of masochist, I reapplied the underlining dilemma onto other subjects. One of the most common and controversial ones being, the American government and their secrete activities. Posed as "Should the American government tell it's people what kind of deplorable acts they commit in the name of "protecting American citizens", or should they hide it to protect the feelings of the people who would feel disgust in being protected through such measures?".

Depending on the question, the truth and the lie became relative to the subject. And since I could never come up with a definite answer, this event in the game kind of haunts me as a problem without an infallible answer. One I can't contemplate over, instead I simply have to make a choice that I can't allow myself to regret later. (Guess I wanted to get a different opinion than "which ever I value more" by posing this question, I've thought about it so long, I feel I've reached a dead end. I wanted to reach a more noble and selfless conclusion, but the more I thought about it the further I got from my goal.)

Not really. I guess I'll lie by over simplifying things fairly often, but I'm not exactly keeping things "secret". Just being lazy. It's kinda lying by omission, but it isn't for the sake of lying.

Actually, sometimes I will lie to cover up a conversation. For the most part I'm bad at lying, but I'm great at doing it on the spot and bending meanings to convince people who overhear me think I'm talking about something else.