Israel + Palestine = WTF!?
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Kaimax wrote...
Your subjective perspective has symbolized the Mosque as an evil "war starter".
While Muslims subjective perspective, symbolized it as one of the holiest lands, and it was "stolen" by the Israel and they want it back in one piece.
the Israels symbolize it as a "obstacle" for them to get they're "land" back.
that's why I can't agree with you, since you only see it as an evil entity that honestly "didn't do any evil" before the Israel "took it by force".
and don't start assuming the Prophet things that won't even happen.
this is where the fight begins, if i'm right the real cause for this never ending fight is the israel trying to get their land back which is taken from them, but the land they claim to be theirs are actually been taken by the palestin ancestor and that is before time. it is rude to someone to just come and take eveything by force.
i have another suggestion how about the israel buy the land from the palestine. why not if the israel really want the land why not use the power of economy. if they managed to acheive even for short period of time maybe 4 years that is enough to buy even al-aqsa.
the reality is no peace can be maintain if others keep taking things with force.
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Qrast wrote...
Kaimax wrote...
Your subjective perspective has symbolized the Mosque as an evil "war starter".
While Muslims subjective perspective, symbolized it as one of the holiest lands, and it was "stolen" by the Israel and they want it back in one piece.
the Israels symbolize it as a "obstacle" for them to get they're "land" back.
that's why I can't agree with you, since you only see it as an evil entity that honestly "didn't do any evil" before the Israel "took it by force".
and don't start assuming the Prophet things that won't even happen.
i have another suggestion how about the israel buy the land from the palestine. why not if the israel really want the land why not use the power of economy. if they managed to acheive even for short period of time maybe 4 years that is enough to buy even al-aqsa.
the reality is no peace can be maintain if others keep taking things with force.
As said before, Israel strongly believes that the land is their God-given gift to them. I don't believe it's possible to convince them otherwise due to their... beliefs.
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Kaimax
Best Master-San
@Qrast Your view of this world is too materialistic....
Nobody can even prove that the land that Israel was promised to was even given by "their God".
the only known fact that I know is, the land originally belongs to Palestine before Israel start shooting at them. Proof: AL Aqsa, it's been there for many generations before Israel "took it's land" with bullets. The UN fucked up big time with they're plan to separate it...
Nobody can even prove that the land that Israel was promised to was even given by "their God".
the only known fact that I know is, the land originally belongs to Palestine before Israel start shooting at them. Proof: AL Aqsa, it's been there for many generations before Israel "took it's land" with bullets. The UN fucked up big time with they're plan to separate it...
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That's why we could never attain world peace with the conflict that is ongoing in the Israel. Why don't they treat each other like family? Well god said that we are all brother and sister why can we become family.
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Kaimax wrote...
@Qrast Your view of this world is too materialistic....Nobody can even prove that the land that Israel was promised to was even given by "their God".
the only known fact that I know is, the land originally belongs to Palestine before Israel start shooting at them. Proof: AL Aqsa, it's been there for many generations before Israel "took it's land" with bullets. The UN fucked up big time with they're plan to separate it...
Some discrepancy needs to be noted. The Zionist lobbyist has always been the center of evil even back in the US and the world in the 19th century and it is a proven fact. It is a blatant act of political mileage that undermines a nation's sovereignty for their own sake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence
Also, I believe it has nothing to do with the UN. The UN is simply powerless. I believe it would fail eventually just like The League of Nations during the Post WW1. To me, the UN is a puppet while the First World bloc and the five nations that has the veto power are the real puppeteer in steering the fate of this world.
Ieryuuda wrote...
That's why we could never attain world peace with the conflict that is ongoing in the Israel. Why don't they treat each other like family? Well god said that we are all brother and sister why can we become family.Its a dream that is close to everyone's heart but the path to achieve it is so far.
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If religion was the only reason they were fighting i guess you could sit on a carpet and hold hands somehow solve the wars, but they're fighting for water as well, which is a bit more important.
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Koyori wrote...
If religion was the only reason they were fighting i guess you could sit on a carpet and hold hands somehow solve the wars, but they're fighting for water as well, which is a bit more important.Don't u all understand war is no SO EASILY finished by just saying: Sorry man, u can take back yours, i take back mine ok? happy? PEACE!?
Just take this this situation:
You have a bully from u are a baby to adult and he/she always bash u up and say watever u have is his/her including your psp given by your momma. And then when you are married and he take raped/have relation with your wife/husband and before he die of old age he say :Sry man for messing your whole life.
Will you FORGIVE HIM THAT EASILY? Same thing applies to the current war.
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My point was that they're not really fighting for some silly reasons, and there's not really one side that's bad as if you're being bullied.
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Kaimax
Best Master-San
well, if you look at it, Palestine is the one getting bullied. Israel already got their half, but they just gotta get more.
Give them an inch, they'll take a mile.
Give them an inch, they'll take a mile.
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I despise the governments of both. Each one seems intent on getting as much land as possible no matter how many citizens die as a result
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Black Jesus JC wrote...
I despise the governments of both. Each one seems intent on getting as much land as possible no matter how many citizens die as a resultis land that much important? looked at Singapore even though their land is very small but each year they expand they land towards the sea why the Israel must choose to have the land which is been palestine for how many years? i don't know? yet.
but if the the matter can be solve i think the world will be a nice place.
there is another Question why do Israel have to use force? instead of diplomatic?
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Qrast wrote...
Black Jesus JC wrote...
I despise the governments of both. Each one seems intent on getting as much land as possible no matter how many citizens die as a resultis land that much important? looked at Singapore even though their land is very small but each year they expand they land towards the sea why the Israel must choose to have the land which is been palestine for how many years? i don't know? yet.
but if the the matter can be solve i think the world will be a nice place.
there is another Question why do Israel have to use force? instead of diplomatic?
True, Singapore can strive to one of the most develop country.
The government never took their citizen seriously cause their pride so high. They should throw away their pride and try to find away to co-exist. No one in this world likes war, would you like your children to stuck in a war torn country.
All people in the world should try to put's other differences and try to live together. Pride is something that you have, but having to much of it is just gonna kill you.
As the saying goes, To have pride is human, to succumb to would be a sinner.
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The situation about Israel and Palestine is really not that much about religion. Religion is just an excuse to mobilize people to join in the political cause.
Israel, as some have kindly pointed out, is a major US ally in the middle east, but by far NOT the only one. A less publicize ally is Saudi Arabia, which is a major oil provider to the US, ensuring that an oil embargo can never happen to US again. btw, saudi is one of the most despotic regimes in the world, many times worse than saddam or taleban. So much for democracy promotion.
Israel's importance was highlighted in the 1970s, when it crushed the secular nationalistic Nasser government of Egypt, and from then on, the secular nationalistic movement in the middle east lost momentum, and religious extremist groups rose to fill the void, resulting in the highly religiously fundamental middle east we see today.
US pumps A LOT of aid into Israel and Saudi and Turkey to maintain its hold over oil, both for profits of oil firms, and its political leverage against the world. The Afghanistan and Iraq wars are basically reinforcing the control over the area, against the rebelious taleban and Saddam. (They stopped listening to the US as much)
As for Israel, since its formation in the 1940s, it continuously seeks to expand its land, as land is a very valuable resource (for housing, factories, military, everything basically). Hence, the militarily superior Israel, armed with latest USA exports and not to mention nuclear weapons (the search for weapons of mass destruction does not go much further than this), builds settlements on Palestinian soil, and enforces their prescence with the military. Extremely harsh and racist treatment of Palestinians is common practice (Quote mayor of Jerusalem, "The only thing I built for the Palestinians is a drainage system, so they do not fall sick and spread the disease to Jewish people). The 'security' wall serves to cut off valuable resouces like water, which is already very scarce, education, and jobs. The purpose is to drive the palestinians out of their homes, so the land can belong to Israel.
Faced with such a powerful thug, what would you do? Talking to them has absolutely no use at all, since their aim is to basically encrouch as much land as possible. Past talks have been constantly undermined by Israel and US. And US vetoes all UN resolutions that so much as tries to bring about some change. No channel to talk, no hope of aid. So you resort to terrorist attacks, like launching rockets, and hope that your homemade device can explode and actually do some damage, like killing 3 people a year? In response to this 'vile' crime, Israel launches massive military strikes, even during cease fire periods (hoping to invoke a response which is used to justify more attacks), that kill thousands in days.
The palestinian leadership is ineffective as well, and intentfully rendered so by Israel and US. On one hand, a luxurious life is offered to the leaders if they choose to do US and Israel's bidding, like trying to pacify (by force if necessary) the starving, parched people evicted from their homes, whose father, mother and brother have been killed by Israelis. On the other, Israel and US blames these leaders for undermining the peace process, and supporting terrorism. All the while, Israel expands, and Palestinians suffer.
This expansion is obviously at the expense of Israel's security. All major muslim nations have agreed to peace if Israel keeps to its internationally recognized borders from the 1970s(a lot smaller than that it really occupies now). However, Israel treats this with disdain. Diplomatic 'solution' to a problem of their own causing is obviously not a consideration. Well, if Israel could negotiate its way to own palestine, jordan, egypt and syria, of course it would do so. But no negotiation with sane people could lead to the fulfillment of Israel's goal, which more expansion.
And Israel was once almost defeated by Egypt and Syria in 1973, and seriously considered nuclear weapons. But situation resolved without resorting to that end.
Of course, some people may instantly label me an anti-semitist, hitler etc. If condoning every single act of attrocity by a nation is not being racist, then everyone who criticizes what the taleban and saddam does is an anti musilm. Anyone who criticizes an american is anti-christian. Does not make sense whatsoever.
To address the claim that the Israelites are supposed to own Palestine: says who? A book? If I write a book that the world belongs Muslims, and that book survives a thousand years or so, does it give justification for muslims to conquer the world? What about the native americans who are already in the US before the colonialists came? Is it justified for them to take over the country?
The right to exist, which Israel claims, is absolute bullshit. No country in the world has that right. A nation exists because it happens to do so. In time, a nation will fall, either to internal forces, or external invasion. Similarly, a nation came into existence because it took over some land that another held. There is no right to speak of.
Israel, as some have kindly pointed out, is a major US ally in the middle east, but by far NOT the only one. A less publicize ally is Saudi Arabia, which is a major oil provider to the US, ensuring that an oil embargo can never happen to US again. btw, saudi is one of the most despotic regimes in the world, many times worse than saddam or taleban. So much for democracy promotion.
Israel's importance was highlighted in the 1970s, when it crushed the secular nationalistic Nasser government of Egypt, and from then on, the secular nationalistic movement in the middle east lost momentum, and religious extremist groups rose to fill the void, resulting in the highly religiously fundamental middle east we see today.
US pumps A LOT of aid into Israel and Saudi and Turkey to maintain its hold over oil, both for profits of oil firms, and its political leverage against the world. The Afghanistan and Iraq wars are basically reinforcing the control over the area, against the rebelious taleban and Saddam. (They stopped listening to the US as much)
As for Israel, since its formation in the 1940s, it continuously seeks to expand its land, as land is a very valuable resource (for housing, factories, military, everything basically). Hence, the militarily superior Israel, armed with latest USA exports and not to mention nuclear weapons (the search for weapons of mass destruction does not go much further than this), builds settlements on Palestinian soil, and enforces their prescence with the military. Extremely harsh and racist treatment of Palestinians is common practice (Quote mayor of Jerusalem, "The only thing I built for the Palestinians is a drainage system, so they do not fall sick and spread the disease to Jewish people). The 'security' wall serves to cut off valuable resouces like water, which is already very scarce, education, and jobs. The purpose is to drive the palestinians out of their homes, so the land can belong to Israel.
Faced with such a powerful thug, what would you do? Talking to them has absolutely no use at all, since their aim is to basically encrouch as much land as possible. Past talks have been constantly undermined by Israel and US. And US vetoes all UN resolutions that so much as tries to bring about some change. No channel to talk, no hope of aid. So you resort to terrorist attacks, like launching rockets, and hope that your homemade device can explode and actually do some damage, like killing 3 people a year? In response to this 'vile' crime, Israel launches massive military strikes, even during cease fire periods (hoping to invoke a response which is used to justify more attacks), that kill thousands in days.
The palestinian leadership is ineffective as well, and intentfully rendered so by Israel and US. On one hand, a luxurious life is offered to the leaders if they choose to do US and Israel's bidding, like trying to pacify (by force if necessary) the starving, parched people evicted from their homes, whose father, mother and brother have been killed by Israelis. On the other, Israel and US blames these leaders for undermining the peace process, and supporting terrorism. All the while, Israel expands, and Palestinians suffer.
This expansion is obviously at the expense of Israel's security. All major muslim nations have agreed to peace if Israel keeps to its internationally recognized borders from the 1970s(a lot smaller than that it really occupies now). However, Israel treats this with disdain. Diplomatic 'solution' to a problem of their own causing is obviously not a consideration. Well, if Israel could negotiate its way to own palestine, jordan, egypt and syria, of course it would do so. But no negotiation with sane people could lead to the fulfillment of Israel's goal, which more expansion.
And Israel was once almost defeated by Egypt and Syria in 1973, and seriously considered nuclear weapons. But situation resolved without resorting to that end.
Of course, some people may instantly label me an anti-semitist, hitler etc. If condoning every single act of attrocity by a nation is not being racist, then everyone who criticizes what the taleban and saddam does is an anti musilm. Anyone who criticizes an american is anti-christian. Does not make sense whatsoever.
To address the claim that the Israelites are supposed to own Palestine: says who? A book? If I write a book that the world belongs Muslims, and that book survives a thousand years or so, does it give justification for muslims to conquer the world? What about the native americans who are already in the US before the colonialists came? Is it justified for them to take over the country?
The right to exist, which Israel claims, is absolute bullshit. No country in the world has that right. A nation exists because it happens to do so. In time, a nation will fall, either to internal forces, or external invasion. Similarly, a nation came into existence because it took over some land that another held. There is no right to speak of.
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My thoughts on this issue: I wish we'd stop wasting our time and money on them. It might also be nice if they both killed each other off completely so some not crazy violent people could have a place to live. Or perhaps once they've completely blown the place to bits we could have it be a monument to religious stupidity.
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You would not say the same if its your country at war/being slaughtered. If you have read my post (or did some research), the only outcome if this continues is the PALESTINIANS get killed. Israelis hardly ever die in this so called conflict.
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blacktornado wrote...
You would not say the same if its your country at war/being slaughtered. If you have read my post (or did some research), the only outcome if this continues is the PALESTINIANS get killed. Israelis hardly ever die in this so called conflict.You do realize that Hamas and various other Palestinian groups were killing civilians as well right? Y'know blowing up buses, markets,etc. So, the Palestinians are just are bad in this "conflict". Instead of killing civilians and supporting a group that publicly states the annihilation of a country. Why not, oh..i dunno make a deal with Israel. They stop the expansion and agree to fund projects in Palestine to build up secular schools, along with other infrastructure like water treatment and roads in exchange for their security and active assistance in preventing attacks on Israel?
So Israel fronts a little bit of money and the Palestinians use their men to work the projects or if the Israeli's fear the money might be used to attack them. Let the U.N. or a generally neutral country like the Swiss be a third party with oversight of the money. The materials might have been bought by Israel but, the Palestinians will own everything. the building materials, the equipment, the boards, nails, hammers will all be Palestinian.
This idea is a lot better than each side trying to kill the other because at this rate the Palestinians will annihilate themselves by constantly being the barroom hero.
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Fiery_penguin_of_doom wrote...
blacktornado wrote...
You would not say the same if its your country at war/being slaughtered. If you have read my post (or did some research), the only outcome if this continues is the PALESTINIANS get killed. Israelis hardly ever die in this so called conflict.You do realize that Hamas and various other Palestinian groups were killing civilians as well right? Y'know blowing up buses, markets,etc. So, the Palestinians are just are bad in this "conflict". Instead of killing civilians and supporting a group that publicly states the annihilation of a country. Why not, oh..i dunno make a deal with Israel. They stop the expansion and agree to fund projects in Palestine to build up secular schools, along with other infrastructure like water treatment and roads in exchange for their security and active assistance in preventing attacks on Israel?
So Israel fronts a little bit of money and the Palestinians use their men to work the projects or if the Israeli's fear the money might be used to attack them. Let the U.N. or a generally neutral country like the Swiss be a third party with oversight of the money. The materials might have been bought by Israel but, the Palestinians will own everything. the building materials, the equipment, the boards, nails, hammers will all be Palestinian.
This idea is a lot better than each side trying to kill the other because at this rate the Palestinians will annihilate themselves by constantly being the barroom hero.
Um sure, Hamas kill people. How many? I know not of the exact statistics, but the number is very very small compared to how many palestanian being killed by Israelis. Why not negotiate you say? Hamas and PLO would love to negotiate and end the 'conflict', but the current (and past) Israeli government DONT. Israelis refuse to negotiate any sort of deal that is decent. They want to expand, and expansion takes priority over security.
And US vetos anything UN does about Israel
Ps. I realise that my first post is kinda long and not exactly too reader friendly, sorry for that.
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Hamas would love to negotiate? You should read the charter. Stop the suicide bombings and amend the charter to remove the language about the "obliteration or nullification of Israel". So far this year we're doing good, no Israeli strikes (to my knowledge) and no Palestinians suicide bombers.
How many palestinians or Israeli have been killed? B'Tselem, The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories reports that 4,908 Palestinians were killed by Israelis and 1,062 Israelis were killed by Palestinians between September 29, 2000 and December 26, 2008.
The U.S. only vetos bills or motions that are not in the U.S's interest. Removing the statehood of Israel doesn't do us a lot of good nor does pissing off one of our major allies in the region. We've been trying to persuade them to slow down the expansion of their settlements. Not much we can do, stop supporting them and leave a very pissed off, paranoid and isolated country armed with nuclear weapons surrounded by people that don't like them? Sounds like a wonderful way.
Random fact; Russia veto's more U.N. resolutions than we do.
How many palestinians or Israeli have been killed? B'Tselem, The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories reports that 4,908 Palestinians were killed by Israelis and 1,062 Israelis were killed by Palestinians between September 29, 2000 and December 26, 2008.
The U.S. only vetos bills or motions that are not in the U.S's interest. Removing the statehood of Israel doesn't do us a lot of good nor does pissing off one of our major allies in the region. We've been trying to persuade them to slow down the expansion of their settlements. Not much we can do, stop supporting them and leave a very pissed off, paranoid and isolated country armed with nuclear weapons surrounded by people that don't like them? Sounds like a wonderful way.
Random fact; Russia veto's more U.N. resolutions than we do.
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I agree with you Kaimax! you know alot about history and you realy understand this clear case.
The big problem is tha arab nations are separated from each other and became mad about their own benefits .You know if there is a man like Mohamed Anwar Alsadat I stress there wouldn't be such chaos from fuckin Israel.
The big problem is tha arab nations are separated from each other and became mad about their own benefits .You know if there is a man like Mohamed Anwar Alsadat I stress there wouldn't be such chaos from fuckin Israel.
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Amnesty International wrote...
The resolution adopted on 26 February 2010 by the General Assembly (A/64/L/48 ), Follow-up to the report of the United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict (II), was adopted with 98 in favour, seven against and 31 abstentions. Twenty-two countries moved their votes from abstention to yes; and nine moved from voting no to abstention. The resolution is a modified version of General Assembly resolution 64/10 adopted on 5 November 2009 which for the first time called on the parties to the Gaza conflict to conduct, within three months, "investigations that are independent, credible and in conformity with international standards into the serious violations of international humanitarian and human rights law reported by the Fact-Finding Mission, towards ensuring accountability and justice".Those countries continuing to vote against the resolution are: Canada, Israel, Micronesia, Nauru, Panama, FYR Macedonia, and the United States of America.
Israel votes against a resolution to find facts about human rights abuses, while at the same time, continues to expand its settlement program.
here is a link to another report by Amnesty International. If you are interested in a more neutral and balanced view of the humanitarian crisis in Occupied Palestine, amnesty international is a very good source to turn to, not ur Israeli center for human rights.
But I will use 1 stat from it anyway: During Gaza war bewteen 27 dec 09 to 18 jan 09, Israeli strikes killed 1417 according to palestinian center for human rights and 1385 according to B'Tselem. Israelis killed: 13, including 4 due to friendly fire and an old lady who died of heart attack. The proportion tells a lot. Hence I am disinclined to buy your statistics. So you are saying that israel makes many strikes like that in the Gaza war, the total death toll is only a bit more in 8 years than in 1 single mission?
another interesting breakdown of deaths of Israeli soldiers in 2005:
Committed Suicide 30
Illness 14
Accidents 26
Terror Incidents 6