On the new TSA body scan/pat down
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Tegumi wrote...
Yes, this is why the indiscriminate routines exist by law. However, because they already exist, and specifically exclude pat-downs and body scans, those two items would be ILLEGAL if used indiscriminately.
I agree, however the pat downs are not being used indiscriminately because the discriminating factor is that you did not get a body scan - which as a said I believe is a routine procedure that is not subject to having to be used in a discriminatory manner.
Tegumi wrote...
Despite all the empirical evidence I've provided. What do you want me to do?The problem is that we have a difference of opinion on what is empirical evidence.
neko-chan wrote...
And yes, I believe that body scan do now qualify as routine procedure. They are done to millions of people a day, multiple times. I would call that routine procedures.Just because it is done routinely doesn't make it legal! The law does not state that it is a routine procedure!
The 4th amendment has easily been “broken” before by the simple principle that in history it has always applied to people, but is subject to change on “places”. The 4th amendment will not protect you in the case of you entering an airport and having to be body scanned. Almost all the amendments are subject to change depending on places. The freedom of speech is halted at the public places – you can drop the F-bomb really loud at home but you can’t shout it out a million times in the Airport without being arrested. You can’t even shout loving well wishes to people without being arrested for disturbing the peace or order (depending on local laws). I’m not saying this the right thing, or that it is the why everyone should be quiet about this. I’m saying that this is why a good lawyer will prove they are legal.
That is all inconsequential though since they don’t have to be legal searches since you are under no obligation to fly. As impractical as that is, it is the truth of the matter. You don’t have to get body scanned because you don’t have to get on a plane.
Interestingly though, if they just switched the images to the avatars they use in other scanners, the issue of them being legal would be gone completely.
Tegumi wrote...
neko-chan wrote...
The article you posted heavily suggested it. The point wasn’t just to add Israeli methods to the existing ones used by the US, but to ditch the existing ones in favor of the Israeli methods.That's because several of the methods used by the TSA are kaput. But obviously the adoption would be a synergistic procedure, there ARE competent people out there.
Hopefully it would be, but the procedures that are in place in American airports do away with the need for the more distinguishing Israeli methods, and when in Israel vis-versa. Why do I need to interview you and your family if I have procedures that let me know if you are carrying anything that give you the ability to even carry out an attack.
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It appears that that body scan and pat down procedures which were implemented have raised quite a bit of furore.
I believe a balance has to be struck between maintaining security and respecting the privacy of others. Some travellers will definitely be uncomfortable with pat downs or full body scans (even more so if the latter poses a health risk). However, a lapse in security could also lead to another major terrorist attack.
No matter what kind of preventive measures are implemented by the authorities, there will always be complaints. Personally, I am unable to come up with any good suggestions to resolve the issue. Perhaps those Fakku members who travel frequently by air are able to come up with some ideas? I am sure the opinions of those working in the security industry will be helpful and valuable in this instance.
I believe a balance has to be struck between maintaining security and respecting the privacy of others. Some travellers will definitely be uncomfortable with pat downs or full body scans (even more so if the latter poses a health risk). However, a lapse in security could also lead to another major terrorist attack.
No matter what kind of preventive measures are implemented by the authorities, there will always be complaints. Personally, I am unable to come up with any good suggestions to resolve the issue. Perhaps those Fakku members who travel frequently by air are able to come up with some ideas? I am sure the opinions of those working in the security industry will be helpful and valuable in this instance.
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Look, no one is complaining about having security measures. We all know that it is necessary to some extent. What we are complaining about are THESE particular methods, because they are invasive, borderline assault, AND to top it off, they don't fucking work.
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animefreak_usa
Child of Samael
Nekohime wrote...
Look, no one is complaining about having security measures. We all know that it is necessary to some extent. What we are complaining about are THESE particular methods, because they are invasive, borderline assault, AND to top it off, they don't fucking work.I see you never got arrested or retain at the border before.... i never had a man hand so far up my ass not for pleasure before.
You think that it bad here in the us go to other counties like Spain, Japan, China, Israel or my fav... Newark, NJ(ever been to new jersey it a whole other place, man)
At least the Spanish and Jews have a real problem with the allah get me some virgins(in the Koran it actually raisins)by blow every body up brigade. On the real just go thru the machine if you can it only has dangerous as a big mac and some fries? Unless you want camo dude with big guns at the airport... Newark!
Edit
forgot why japan in there... four hours of them check my passport, my id, my army id, search server to see if im allah akbar, check my wife passport, id, my child id( yep may thought either she a danger or pack with tnt)and the kicker because i won;t let my wife go thru the machine because... she was 8 months pregnant. still better than Newark.
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Tegumi
"im always cute"
neko-chan wrote...
I agree, however the pat downs are not being used indiscriminately because the discriminating factor is that you did not get a body scan - which as a said I believe is a routine procedure that is not subject to having to be used in a discriminatory manner.Oh look, you found the loophole. Or at least, I'd say that, but neither procedures are considered routine anyway. The fact that you are required to do one or the other is indiscriminate.
neko-chan wrote...
The problem is that we have a difference of opinion on what is empirical evidence.Fact: I have provided articles, you have not.
neko-chan wrote...
The 4th amendment has easily been “broken” before by the simple principle that in history it has always applied to people, but is subject to change on “places”. The 4th amendment will not protect you in the case of you entering an airport and having to be body scanned.YES, IT DOES. INDISCRIMINATE BODY SEARCH IS ILLEGAL. THIS IS A FACT. YOU ARE IGNORING THE EVIDENCE AND LOGIC I HAVE PRESENTED YOU.
neko-chan wrote...
Almost all the amendments are subject to change depending on places. The freedom of speech is halted at the public places – you can drop the F-bomb really loud at home but you can’t shout it out a million times in the Airport without being arrested. You can’t even shout loving well wishes to people without being arrested for disturbing the peace or order (depending on local laws). I’m not saying this the right thing, or that it is the why everyone should be quiet about this. I’m saying that this is why a good lawyer will prove they are legal.This is a HORRIBLE analogy. The CORE reason why disturbance of the peace is against the law is because it VIOLATES other people's rights.
neko-chan wrote...
That is all inconsequential though since they don’t have to be legal searches since you are under no obligation to fly. As impractical as that is, it is the truth of the matter. You don’t have to get body scanned because you don’t have to get on a plane.This is TERRIBLE logic. Technically, you aren't under obligation to do ANYTHING. This does not mean that the procedures at the airport do not have to be legal.
neko-chan wrote...
but the procedures that are in place in American airports do away with the need for the more distinguishing Israeli methods, and when in Israel vis-versa. Why do I need to interview you and your family if I have procedures that let me know if you are carrying anything that give you the ability to even carry out an attack.Oh, god. If there was a procedure which allowed the TSA to know -exactly- what every passenger was carrying, but violated legal, moral, and privacy standards; it is not a valid procedure.
Okay, I get it. You don't feel it's that big a deal. You can just stay at home and avoid it. This, however, does not change the fact that other people cannot, and that it violates our rights as U.S. citizens.
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There's a ton of great articles, blog post summaries, and information about this on the news site Boing Boing.
For example, these gems...
TSA security groping leaves 61-year-old bladder cancer survivor soaked in own urine
Amputee forced to remove prosthesis, expose residual limb, be separated from 4yo son
For one, I find it amusing that though this (the groping) has been happening for decades to minorities and women, it's only when they start touching the middle-class-white-man's balls does the media somehow find it even close to deeming "sexual assault"...
Seriously, there are rape/assault/molestation survivors having breakdowns because of these new procedures. If that doesn't say something, then I don't know what does.
But at least people are noticing and reacting.
Remember, travelers, you HAVE A CIVIL RIGHT TO OPT OUT!
And if they break their own rules, report them here, ASAP: https://contact.tsa.dhs.gov/talktotsa/talktotsa.aspx
For example, these gems...
TSA security groping leaves 61-year-old bladder cancer survivor soaked in own urine
Amputee forced to remove prosthesis, expose residual limb, be separated from 4yo son
For one, I find it amusing that though this (the groping) has been happening for decades to minorities and women, it's only when they start touching the middle-class-white-man's balls does the media somehow find it even close to deeming "sexual assault"...
Seriously, there are rape/assault/molestation survivors having breakdowns because of these new procedures. If that doesn't say something, then I don't know what does.
But at least people are noticing and reacting.
Remember, travelers, you HAVE A CIVIL RIGHT TO OPT OUT!
And if they break their own rules, report them here, ASAP: https://contact.tsa.dhs.gov/talktotsa/talktotsa.aspx
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I had the bad luck of getting the full body Pat down when going on a trip 2 weeks ago... As a girl it felt really awkward to be patted down by a grown man. In other words I felt I was getting groped.
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Hannanu wrote...
I had the bad luck of getting the full body Pat down when going on a trip 2 weeks ago... As a girl it felt really awkward to be patted down by a grown man. In other words I felt I was getting groped.Did you opt out of the scanner, or did you go through and had to get groped anyway?
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Hannanu wrote...
I had the bad luck of getting the full body Pat down when going on a trip 2 weeks ago... As a girl it felt really awkward to be patted down by a grown man. In other words I felt I was getting groped.Exactly. They're basically legalizing sexual assault... people who've BEEN assaulted/worse are being made to re-live this every time they fly, now? Pretty sick.
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gizgal wrote...
Hannanu wrote...
I had the bad luck of getting the full body Pat down when going on a trip 2 weeks ago... As a girl it felt really awkward to be patted down by a grown man. In other words I felt I was getting groped.Exactly. They're basically legalizing sexual assault... people who've BEEN assaulted/worse are being made to re-live this every time they fly, now? Pretty sick.
Oh, but they can always go through the scanner, where they'll be seen naked instead...so not triggering at all, right?
*sighs at the TSA fuckery*
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gizgal wrote...
Exactly. They're basically legalizing sexual assault... people who've BEEN assaulted/worse are being made to re-live this every time they fly, now? Pretty sick.I know it's horrible, it felt grotesque having that dude touching me!
Nekohime wrote...
Did you opt out of the scanner, or did you go through and had to get groped anyway?I had to get groped anyways... :(
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Gals (and guys even), I highly recommend sporting a set of these when flying.
They can't do anything about them, and if they ask to see what you're concealing, pull em out.
Pasties for flying... keep your hands off!
They even make ones for the front and back of you, not only to shield you from having your private areas "scanned" by machines and saved, but also to protect from xrays (apparently?)!
Oh, also this amazing bit on how "random" random searches really have become... (not very).
This is a quote from this article:
MANY WHITE MALE TERROR SUSPECTS GOT NO PAT DOWN THAT DAY, I WONDER WHY.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFfffffffffffffffffffffff
One last gem before I go to bed, this time where the TSA FORCES, and this is against their written rules of conduct, mind you, FORCES a pregnant woman to use a potentially harmful to utero development, x-ray driven body scanner even when she asked to opt out and have a pat down (perfectly legal, and TSA sanctioned option.)...source here...
The two TSA agents asked me, "Why don't you want to go through this?" I said, "I don't trust it." They said, "Why don't you trust it?" I said, "I am pregnant and would rather be pat down." And they said, "Oh but you get ultrasounds, don't you?"
I answered yes and the TSA officer said, "Oh it is less than an ultrasound, and it's really easy so just go through."
The TSA officers are doctors now??
They repeated again for me to just go through the scanner and it would be done in 5 seconds. I was literally in tears because I wanted a pat-down instead of going through the machine, and I felt they declined me that option. No matter how much I pushed for a hand pat-down, they pushed harder for the machine.
Then, after I stood in the machine, the officer waiting on the other side of it patronized me by cooing, "There, that was easy, wasn't it?"
That's the twisted reasoning a sexual predator uses, my friends... coercion and making the process seem painless, while humiliating and scaring, even physically harming, a victim.
I rest my case. This is some sick stuff that our population is being complacent about...
Sorry for the long post, but I'm pretty passionate when it comes to this topic ;3;'
They can't do anything about them, and if they ask to see what you're concealing, pull em out.
Pasties for flying... keep your hands off!
They even make ones for the front and back of you, not only to shield you from having your private areas "scanned" by machines and saved, but also to protect from xrays (apparently?)!
Spoiler:
Oh, also this amazing bit on how "random" random searches really have become... (not very).
This is a quote from this article:
I asked, "How are people selected for secondary searches?. She replied "It's random."
I asked "Is there a mark on my boarding pass?" She replied, "We used to do that, but we don't do it anymore." She did not know why that practice had been discontinued.
I stated "So you look at people as they are entering the metal detector, you make some type of assessment, and then you select people for secondary searches, right?"
...At this point, I turned to look over my shoulder and observed a Caucasian woman in her late thirties or early forties standing inside the whole-body imager. I called my screener's attention to this and said. "Look over there. There's a woman in the scanner. You all picked me for a search, and then the very next person you select is a woman. Why didn't you pick a white guy? Where are all the white guys?"
She replied, helpfully, "We are understaffed today and we don't have enough male screeners to do pat downs. We are not allowed to do opposite sex pat-downs so we are only selecting women for secondary screening."
By this point, I was seated and she was patting down the bottom of my feet. The secondary search, more thorough than the last search I had been subjected to in Albany, but equally ineffective, was nearing completion. I said "If you are only selecting women, how is that random?"
She said, "You're done. You can collect your belongings, Have a nice day."
I asked "Is there a mark on my boarding pass?" She replied, "We used to do that, but we don't do it anymore." She did not know why that practice had been discontinued.
I stated "So you look at people as they are entering the metal detector, you make some type of assessment, and then you select people for secondary searches, right?"
...At this point, I turned to look over my shoulder and observed a Caucasian woman in her late thirties or early forties standing inside the whole-body imager. I called my screener's attention to this and said. "Look over there. There's a woman in the scanner. You all picked me for a search, and then the very next person you select is a woman. Why didn't you pick a white guy? Where are all the white guys?"
She replied, helpfully, "We are understaffed today and we don't have enough male screeners to do pat downs. We are not allowed to do opposite sex pat-downs so we are only selecting women for secondary screening."
By this point, I was seated and she was patting down the bottom of my feet. The secondary search, more thorough than the last search I had been subjected to in Albany, but equally ineffective, was nearing completion. I said "If you are only selecting women, how is that random?"
She said, "You're done. You can collect your belongings, Have a nice day."
MANY WHITE MALE TERROR SUSPECTS GOT NO PAT DOWN THAT DAY, I WONDER WHY.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFfffffffffffffffffffffff
One last gem before I go to bed, this time where the TSA FORCES, and this is against their written rules of conduct, mind you, FORCES a pregnant woman to use a potentially harmful to utero development, x-ray driven body scanner even when she asked to opt out and have a pat down (perfectly legal, and TSA sanctioned option.)...source here...
The two TSA agents asked me, "Why don't you want to go through this?" I said, "I don't trust it." They said, "Why don't you trust it?" I said, "I am pregnant and would rather be pat down." And they said, "Oh but you get ultrasounds, don't you?"
I answered yes and the TSA officer said, "Oh it is less than an ultrasound, and it's really easy so just go through."
The TSA officers are doctors now??
They repeated again for me to just go through the scanner and it would be done in 5 seconds. I was literally in tears because I wanted a pat-down instead of going through the machine, and I felt they declined me that option. No matter how much I pushed for a hand pat-down, they pushed harder for the machine.
Then, after I stood in the machine, the officer waiting on the other side of it patronized me by cooing, "There, that was easy, wasn't it?"
That's the twisted reasoning a sexual predator uses, my friends... coercion and making the process seem painless, while humiliating and scaring, even physically harming, a victim.
I rest my case. This is some sick stuff that our population is being complacent about...
Sorry for the long post, but I'm pretty passionate when it comes to this topic ;3;'
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Hannanu wrote...
I had the bad luck of getting the full body Pat down when going on a trip 2 weeks ago... As a girl it felt really awkward to be patted down by a grown man. In other words I felt I was getting groped.yeah...freaking guys did it front of me! Screw the TSA!
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Nekohime wrote...
Do you think it is reasonable for the TSA to do this?
No.
chocohime wrote...
Does it violate the Fourth Amendment?Yes.
tissuehime wrote...
If you plan on flying, would you rather risk cancer or groping?I'd prefer these chucklefucks not exist. The TSA does the shit-poorest job ever of anything that can be called 'doing something about it'. "Oh no, terrorists, let's feel everyone up and make them take off their shoes."
As-is, I wouldn't put up with either method, instead telling them to shove their heads up there asses, and otherwise causing a massive scene.
I'd rather take my chances on a bomb than be touched by these sicks fucks breaking my constitution. This same sentiment can be applied to every other ill-fitting 'solution' the government tries to come up with.
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Even more TSA fuckery:
Next step for body scanners could be trains, boats, metro. I take the subways to get around, and at one point I had to do several transfers to get to school. Can you imagine being irradiated every fucking time you get on the train? Bullshit.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/130549-next-step-for-body-scanners-could-be-trains-boats-and-the-metro-
Adam Savage writes about how the TSA saw his junk but missed hidden razor blades, showing how utterly ineffective and stupid these new "heightened security measures" are.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/11/adam-savage-tsa-saw-my-junk-missed-12-razor-blades.ars
Next step for body scanners could be trains, boats, metro. I take the subways to get around, and at one point I had to do several transfers to get to school. Can you imagine being irradiated every fucking time you get on the train? Bullshit.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/130549-next-step-for-body-scanners-could-be-trains-boats-and-the-metro-
Adam Savage writes about how the TSA saw his junk but missed hidden razor blades, showing how utterly ineffective and stupid these new "heightened security measures" are.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/11/adam-savage-tsa-saw-my-junk-missed-12-razor-blades.ars
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Tegumi: Amazing articles.
Gizgal: Amazing points.
I like the vibes here.
I'd like to point to a quote that illustrates my feels fairly succinctly- "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither," ~Benjamin Franklin. I knew this quote a while back, but had forgotten until I was looking at the Liberty shirt on shanshee, and the fine folks here that put it together reminded me of it.
The reality is that there are much, much safer, less invasive, and tested ways to go about airport security, as shown by Tegumi's Isrealification article. The media and the politicians are muddling the situation, and as there is no real urgency-as there is in Israel (who I really respect for how they get sh-- done), we just keep going around in circles. Maybe we need another kick in our asses to show us that we need to stop piddling about and change things 'round here.
Edit: Thanks for reminding me Nekohime, I was going to say something about the whole Adam Savage thing but completely forgot, and I guess I just skimmed over your post. That incident illustrates how utterly stupid, broken, and superfluous the whole scanner is. Why swat a fly with a sledgehammer when a flyswatter works just fine?
Gizgal: Amazing points.
I like the vibes here.
I'd like to point to a quote that illustrates my feels fairly succinctly- "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither," ~Benjamin Franklin. I knew this quote a while back, but had forgotten until I was looking at the Liberty shirt on shanshee, and the fine folks here that put it together reminded me of it.
The reality is that there are much, much safer, less invasive, and tested ways to go about airport security, as shown by Tegumi's Isrealification article. The media and the politicians are muddling the situation, and as there is no real urgency-as there is in Israel (who I really respect for how they get sh-- done), we just keep going around in circles. Maybe we need another kick in our asses to show us that we need to stop piddling about and change things 'round here.
Edit: Thanks for reminding me Nekohime, I was going to say something about the whole Adam Savage thing but completely forgot, and I guess I just skimmed over your post. That incident illustrates how utterly stupid, broken, and superfluous the whole scanner is. Why swat a fly with a sledgehammer when a flyswatter works just fine?
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I just flew home for thanksgiving and the TSA agent didnt pat me down despite his name being patrick. I was quite disappointed because I felt like it was meant to be. 8D
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Waar
FAKKU Moderator
Has there been an influx of airplane bombs/weapons being smuggled on planes recently? has anyone explained why the recent changes in security are being made? As far as I know ever since 9/11 air travel has been more strict and safer (for the most part) and fewer incidents have happened. Why do we need new, more elaborate ways to search passengers now?