Porno Instead of Sex Ed?
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if you want to have fun, watch porn and learn from it...
if you want to avoid getting someone impregnated, listen to yer prof babble about how the female genitals work...
if you want to avoid getting someone impregnated, listen to yer prof babble about how the female genitals work...
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I got my facts from UNICEF. Says that japan has 137.352 births per 1 million people. Netherlands is quite low, but still only reaches 172.061. Gemany I'm afraid is much higher than that - I will admit that netherlands is a fairly good model nation though. Germany on the other hand is not particularly.
When I mentioned them being smaller, I didn't mean sample size either. Smaller countries are much more centralized and have entirely different infrastructure. They tend to do quite well for themselves as a result, but lack the cooperation that countries like the US has between its individual states (in comparison to the european union).
I agree that the US needs to do something about teen pregnancy, but I think it’s a much deeper underlying problem than simply lowering the age requirements on porn and sex. The issue has deep cultural roots. Maybe it doesn't count for as much in silly forum debates like this, but I'll just say that no one of any stature will ever take the untested correlations you keep citing as indication of a cause. You would have to actually test your hypothesis first. Not that you have a correlation - every country in the world has a lower teen pregnancy rate as I previously pointed out. What you have is an outlier. The fact that the US is so far from any other country already speaks volumes about the depth of the problem.
Also, when I said logic and common sense, it was because you completely ignored all of my points in the previous post (previous to that post I mean, not this one). If you want to see what taking a comment out of context really is, you've just done a fine example.
Then you are being naive. I am not generalizing. But I will humor you for the sake of argument - lets assume you are right. Do you really think that a teenager who can't be bothered to type 'sex' or 'porn' into google is really going to go out and spend 20$ on a porn magazine? Why would you embarrass yourself buying something you weren't even interested in? Even if it was legal to sell it, kids are still gonna look it up in the privacy of their rooms first if at all possible.
On the topic of japan, the real reason they have such a low teen pregnancy rate is because they are one of the most conservative countries. Their family culture and family structure is entirely different. This is the real reason america has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates as well. Citing japan's porn industry doesn't show anything either. We are talking about laws here, aren't we? The US has a thriving porn industry too. China has the largest porn industry, and all of their laws are stricter. I should also note that trying to argue japans pornography laws as liberal is laughable. Japan still restricts anyone under the age of 18 from buying even their censored porn, or any other materials they deem 'adult'. The government has a lot of power under japanese pornography laws. You argue that they simply choose not to enforce that law, but isn't that how it is in the US? That sounds alot like my argument.
Also, as a side note, most states in the US have the age of consent set at 16. Japan doesn't really have an age of consent of 13 either - their national law dictates that it has to be at least 13, but almost everywhere in japan the age of consent is 18 (by municipal law). I don't have the time to research all the other numbers you posted, but I would guess that several of those aren't entirely representative (like your number for japan).
I'm not terrified that teenagers will be exploited either, it was much more of a minor point. I simply kept bringing it up because you failed to address it two posts in a row. I will agree that it is hard to justify it as being exploited when you view porn as only entertainment, but porn is slightly different in that it has a natural drive behind it. I would say that it is more parallel to what would probably happen if cigarettes where legalized for kids - the tobacco companies would target advertising campaigns at them (not that I mean to imply porn is bad the way cigarettes are, only that it can be addictive like them). There is still the matter of adult advertisements going uncontrolled if you remove the restrictions as well. I don't think there could be much good from porn companies being given an even larger reign over the internet.
Also, people don't respect the law because its the law. They respect it for the consequences it carries. People all across america get speeding tickets every day because they don't respect the law - because the consequences aren't high enough. Teenagers don't respect the law concerning porn because there aren't any consequences. Companies however do, because the consequences for them are extremely high. You don't have some sort of respect tab with society when it comes to laws - government dictates the emphasis a law gets simply by the consequences and enforcement of the law. American pornography laws barely have either.
Yes... because obviously teen pregnancy is a situation I'm in. I considered the possibility that you had intended to refer to teen pregnancy rates, but you specifically said you're, which would make absolutely no sense if you were talking about teen pregnancy as you claim. You can't have it both ways. I didn't take your remark out of context, because you didn't properly set the context – I only took it for what it was, the way you stated it. Don't blame me for your inability to communicate.
The other bit (about age restrictions) from earlier still makes no sense. I knew what you were referring to when you wrote it, and it didn't make sense then, and it still doesn’t make sense after you’ve attempted to clarify it. The statement was logically flawed.
Say what you will though… these posts just keep getting longer, and I don’t see an end to this. When I originally said that our system was fine, it was in reference to sex education, but somehow you turned this into a debate about teen pregnancy. We haven’t been on topic for a while, and someone has to draw the line – so this will be my last post.
When I mentioned them being smaller, I didn't mean sample size either. Smaller countries are much more centralized and have entirely different infrastructure. They tend to do quite well for themselves as a result, but lack the cooperation that countries like the US has between its individual states (in comparison to the european union).
I agree that the US needs to do something about teen pregnancy, but I think it’s a much deeper underlying problem than simply lowering the age requirements on porn and sex. The issue has deep cultural roots. Maybe it doesn't count for as much in silly forum debates like this, but I'll just say that no one of any stature will ever take the untested correlations you keep citing as indication of a cause. You would have to actually test your hypothesis first. Not that you have a correlation - every country in the world has a lower teen pregnancy rate as I previously pointed out. What you have is an outlier. The fact that the US is so far from any other country already speaks volumes about the depth of the problem.
Also, when I said logic and common sense, it was because you completely ignored all of my points in the previous post (previous to that post I mean, not this one). If you want to see what taking a comment out of context really is, you've just done a fine example.
Ambivalent Ecstasy wrote...
I disagree with you when you say that every teenager with access to the Internet watches porn regularly, you're generalizing. On the subject of the porn industry exploiting teenagers, I've got to question where you're going on this; you're terrified that people will try and sell your teenagers porn? Shouldn't you also be worried that there are people trying to sell your teenagers computer games? Or food? Why is it only “exploiting” when there is sexual content involved? The fact of the matter is that something would change; your country would stop encouraging it's teenagers to ignore the law. On the principle of it people should be encouraged to respect the law, when it is just and right.Then you are being naive. I am not generalizing. But I will humor you for the sake of argument - lets assume you are right. Do you really think that a teenager who can't be bothered to type 'sex' or 'porn' into google is really going to go out and spend 20$ on a porn magazine? Why would you embarrass yourself buying something you weren't even interested in? Even if it was legal to sell it, kids are still gonna look it up in the privacy of their rooms first if at all possible.
On the topic of japan, the real reason they have such a low teen pregnancy rate is because they are one of the most conservative countries. Their family culture and family structure is entirely different. This is the real reason america has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates as well. Citing japan's porn industry doesn't show anything either. We are talking about laws here, aren't we? The US has a thriving porn industry too. China has the largest porn industry, and all of their laws are stricter. I should also note that trying to argue japans pornography laws as liberal is laughable. Japan still restricts anyone under the age of 18 from buying even their censored porn, or any other materials they deem 'adult'. The government has a lot of power under japanese pornography laws. You argue that they simply choose not to enforce that law, but isn't that how it is in the US? That sounds alot like my argument.
Also, as a side note, most states in the US have the age of consent set at 16. Japan doesn't really have an age of consent of 13 either - their national law dictates that it has to be at least 13, but almost everywhere in japan the age of consent is 18 (by municipal law). I don't have the time to research all the other numbers you posted, but I would guess that several of those aren't entirely representative (like your number for japan).
I'm not terrified that teenagers will be exploited either, it was much more of a minor point. I simply kept bringing it up because you failed to address it two posts in a row. I will agree that it is hard to justify it as being exploited when you view porn as only entertainment, but porn is slightly different in that it has a natural drive behind it. I would say that it is more parallel to what would probably happen if cigarettes where legalized for kids - the tobacco companies would target advertising campaigns at them (not that I mean to imply porn is bad the way cigarettes are, only that it can be addictive like them). There is still the matter of adult advertisements going uncontrolled if you remove the restrictions as well. I don't think there could be much good from porn companies being given an even larger reign over the internet.
Also, people don't respect the law because its the law. They respect it for the consequences it carries. People all across america get speeding tickets every day because they don't respect the law - because the consequences aren't high enough. Teenagers don't respect the law concerning porn because there aren't any consequences. Companies however do, because the consequences for them are extremely high. You don't have some sort of respect tab with society when it comes to laws - government dictates the emphasis a law gets simply by the consequences and enforcement of the law. American pornography laws barely have either.
Ambivalent Ecstasy wrote...
When I wrote: Your point seems to be; if it isn't broken then don't fix it, well evidently it is broken or you wouldn't be in the situation you're in right now. The subject I was referring to was America's system for dealing with teen pregnancy, but I wouldn't blame you for taking my remark out of context, or not reading it properly, it's not the first time you've done it and probably won't be the last either. If you took the time to read carefully and think about what I might mean by the comment I made then you wouldn't be so confused. (I will also try to be clearer in future.)Yes... because obviously teen pregnancy is a situation I'm in. I considered the possibility that you had intended to refer to teen pregnancy rates, but you specifically said you're, which would make absolutely no sense if you were talking about teen pregnancy as you claim. You can't have it both ways. I didn't take your remark out of context, because you didn't properly set the context – I only took it for what it was, the way you stated it. Don't blame me for your inability to communicate.
The other bit (about age restrictions) from earlier still makes no sense. I knew what you were referring to when you wrote it, and it didn't make sense then, and it still doesn’t make sense after you’ve attempted to clarify it. The statement was logically flawed.
Say what you will though… these posts just keep getting longer, and I don’t see an end to this. When I originally said that our system was fine, it was in reference to sex education, but somehow you turned this into a debate about teen pregnancy. We haven’t been on topic for a while, and someone has to draw the line – so this will be my last post.
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Okay StaticChange, I'll try and clarify my points in this post, so you can understand; America as it is, has a problem with teen pregnancy, which I'm sure you would not dispute, has a very valid connection to the way your teenagers are raised and how they view the laws.
We can only draw the conclusion that something must be changed; as in the way teenagers are taught responsibility. That is the way things can change, it is no use to say: "well let's just leave things as they are", because things are not fine the way they are no matter how many times you say it.
In my defense as far as the hypothesis comment is concerned,I did pick the best nations and then look at their ages of consent, it's not like I was picking out random countries. All of these were on the other side of the teen birth table to the US. I don't believe it's a coincidence that they were at the other end of the age of consent spectrum.
When I mentioned them being smaller, I didn't mean sample size either. Smaller countries are much more centralized and have entirely different infrastructure. They tend to do quite well for themselves as a result, but lack the cooperation that countries like the US has between its individual states (in comparison to the european union).
I agree with you here: countries do have different infrastructures, and theirs has been proven more successful in the handling of teenage pregnancy.
Then you are being naive. I am not generalizing. But I will humor you for the sake of argument - lets assume you are right. Do you really think that a teenager who can't be bothered to type 'sex' or 'porn' into google is really going to go out and spend 20$ on a porn magazine? Why would you embarrass yourself buying something you weren't even interested in? Even if it was legal to sell it, kids are still gonna look it up in the privacy of their rooms first if at all possible.
It's not about being bothered, it's about choosing not to; if they have strict parents, they may be punished if they are found out. More and more, parents are choosing to censor what their child views on the internet, so I would state that not every teenager who wants to watch porn and has internet access, has access to it.
I would say Japan's culture is different to that of America's, but I would not attribute conservatism as the main reason behind their low teen pregnancy rate. I don't see how you cannot say Japan's laws aren't liberal considering their policies on child pornography.
I'm not terrified that teenagers will be exploited either, it was much more of a minor point. I simply kept bringing it up because you failed to address it two posts in a row. I will agree that it is hard to justify it as being exploited when you view porn as only entertainment, but porn is slightly different in that it has a natural drive behind it. I would say that it is more parallel to what would probably happen if cigarettes where legalized for kids - the tobacco companies would target advertising campaigns at them (not that I mean to imply porn is bad the way cigarettes are, only that it can be addictive like them). There is still the matter of adult advertisements going uncontrolled if you remove the restrictions as well. I don't think there could be much good from porn companies being given an even larger reign over the internet.
I say lower the age requirement to view pornography; there is a natural drive behind eating, and drinking. Those refreshment companies are really exploiting teenagers. Food and drink can be addictive, so the companies should be stopped from marketing to teenagers? Cigarettes and Pornography are two very different issues however, there are already strict laws in place against advertising cigarettes to anyone where I am. Advertisements wouldn't have to go uncontrolled, when I said "look to European countries and how they handle pornography" in the past, this is what I meant.
Also, people don't respect the law because its the law. They respect it for the consequences it carries. People all across america get speeding tickets every day because they don't respect the law - because the consequences aren't high enough. Teenagers don't respect the law concerning porn because there aren't any consequences. Companies however do, because the consequences for them are extremely high. You don't have some sort of respect tab with society when it comes to laws - government dictates the emphasis a law gets simply by the consequences and enforcement of the law. American pornography laws barely have either.
If that's the case then it's terrible, and perhaps a testament to the fact that America has so many people in prison. Once again I'll state that people need to be taught responsibility from an early age. Otherwise things will continue on this way.
Yes... because obviously teen pregnancy is a situation I'm in. I considered the possibility that you had intended to refer to teen pregnancy rates, but you specifically said you're, which would make absolutely no sense if you were talking about teen pregnancy as you claim.
I meant you're as in: America, you are American right? It does make sense; I was saying that if you agree that there should be a law setting an age where most people are mature enough to have sex, then you would also agree that it should be lower than it is right now, as teenagers from around the world have proven that they can show restraint.
What you don't seem to want to accept, is that Pornography, sex education and teen pregnancy do fall into the same category. The latter being the end result of a poor system. When you say that the sex education system is fine as it is, you are completely ignoring the end result: which is a higher rate of teen pregnancy. If poor application of A and B lead to C: In what way is keeping A and B the way they are going to change C?
In general, teenagers need to be taught responsibility, Sex Ed is part of that, but it's obviously not good enough the way it is.
We can only draw the conclusion that something must be changed; as in the way teenagers are taught responsibility. That is the way things can change, it is no use to say: "well let's just leave things as they are", because things are not fine the way they are no matter how many times you say it.
In my defense as far as the hypothesis comment is concerned,I did pick the best nations and then look at their ages of consent, it's not like I was picking out random countries. All of these were on the other side of the teen birth table to the US. I don't believe it's a coincidence that they were at the other end of the age of consent spectrum.
When I mentioned them being smaller, I didn't mean sample size either. Smaller countries are much more centralized and have entirely different infrastructure. They tend to do quite well for themselves as a result, but lack the cooperation that countries like the US has between its individual states (in comparison to the european union).
I agree with you here: countries do have different infrastructures, and theirs has been proven more successful in the handling of teenage pregnancy.
Then you are being naive. I am not generalizing. But I will humor you for the sake of argument - lets assume you are right. Do you really think that a teenager who can't be bothered to type 'sex' or 'porn' into google is really going to go out and spend 20$ on a porn magazine? Why would you embarrass yourself buying something you weren't even interested in? Even if it was legal to sell it, kids are still gonna look it up in the privacy of their rooms first if at all possible.
It's not about being bothered, it's about choosing not to; if they have strict parents, they may be punished if they are found out. More and more, parents are choosing to censor what their child views on the internet, so I would state that not every teenager who wants to watch porn and has internet access, has access to it.
I would say Japan's culture is different to that of America's, but I would not attribute conservatism as the main reason behind their low teen pregnancy rate. I don't see how you cannot say Japan's laws aren't liberal considering their policies on child pornography.
I'm not terrified that teenagers will be exploited either, it was much more of a minor point. I simply kept bringing it up because you failed to address it two posts in a row. I will agree that it is hard to justify it as being exploited when you view porn as only entertainment, but porn is slightly different in that it has a natural drive behind it. I would say that it is more parallel to what would probably happen if cigarettes where legalized for kids - the tobacco companies would target advertising campaigns at them (not that I mean to imply porn is bad the way cigarettes are, only that it can be addictive like them). There is still the matter of adult advertisements going uncontrolled if you remove the restrictions as well. I don't think there could be much good from porn companies being given an even larger reign over the internet.
I say lower the age requirement to view pornography; there is a natural drive behind eating, and drinking. Those refreshment companies are really exploiting teenagers. Food and drink can be addictive, so the companies should be stopped from marketing to teenagers? Cigarettes and Pornography are two very different issues however, there are already strict laws in place against advertising cigarettes to anyone where I am. Advertisements wouldn't have to go uncontrolled, when I said "look to European countries and how they handle pornography" in the past, this is what I meant.
Also, people don't respect the law because its the law. They respect it for the consequences it carries. People all across america get speeding tickets every day because they don't respect the law - because the consequences aren't high enough. Teenagers don't respect the law concerning porn because there aren't any consequences. Companies however do, because the consequences for them are extremely high. You don't have some sort of respect tab with society when it comes to laws - government dictates the emphasis a law gets simply by the consequences and enforcement of the law. American pornography laws barely have either.
If that's the case then it's terrible, and perhaps a testament to the fact that America has so many people in prison. Once again I'll state that people need to be taught responsibility from an early age. Otherwise things will continue on this way.
Yes... because obviously teen pregnancy is a situation I'm in. I considered the possibility that you had intended to refer to teen pregnancy rates, but you specifically said you're, which would make absolutely no sense if you were talking about teen pregnancy as you claim.
I meant you're as in: America, you are American right? It does make sense; I was saying that if you agree that there should be a law setting an age where most people are mature enough to have sex, then you would also agree that it should be lower than it is right now, as teenagers from around the world have proven that they can show restraint.
What you don't seem to want to accept, is that Pornography, sex education and teen pregnancy do fall into the same category. The latter being the end result of a poor system. When you say that the sex education system is fine as it is, you are completely ignoring the end result: which is a higher rate of teen pregnancy. If poor application of A and B lead to C: In what way is keeping A and B the way they are going to change C?
In general, teenagers need to be taught responsibility, Sex Ed is part of that, but it's obviously not good enough the way it is.
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SunQuan wrote...
You're missing the contradictory nature of sex-ed in America. American schools feel compelled to teach sex-ed simply because they KNOW eventually most of the kids there are going to have sex, if they haven't already. So they feel the kids need to be educated on it at least a little so they know how to protect themselves from the risks involved.The contradiction is, while the educators know most of the kids will have sex, they don't want them to. To MY mind, sex-ed is more a course on how scary sex can be than anything else. Take a look at what those courses focus on: pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, hygiene (feminine or otherwise), prevention... That, combined with the ultra-PC diagrams and clinical detachment of the educators, all comes together to point to one conclusion: abstinence, especially for teenagers, is the best solution to it all. Adults want teenagers to be educated, yet they also want them to refrain from having sex at all.
So, if you think about it from that perspective, would it make sense for teachers to show porn of any kind in schools? Of course not! That would ENCOURAGE teenagers to have sex, not keep them on the straight and narrow. We want these kids to eat corn flakes and get good grades, not have sex. Teaching them new and unusual techniques to try with one another is right out. They wouldn't want to open Pandora's Box right in the classroom and have outraged parents blaming them for encouraging their children to perform fellatio to lower the risk of pregnancy.
I was thinking of maybe editing out a bit of the post to make your point shorter, but then I realized... everything you said was intelligent, and important. That made my day (night for me).
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i say fuck the line. Kids will be kids let them live and learn. If they get knocked up well too bad. Lets face it we live in a very sexual society. Sex is even pushed on disney channel nowadays. So no amout of preaching or educating or forcing will stop a kid from exploring. I say let em explore instead of wasting time money and energy trying to counter all the shit being fed to them by society and corporate peddling. Of course if its your kid you should sit them down at some point and explane it to them before hand so at least they have some clue as to what theyd be getting into. But you have to admit, theres really no approach that will change anything all you can realy do is give em' the talk and hope for the best.
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i see where jebus is coming from on this subject. sex ed is about teaching younger ones about sex in general, and should be. not just "this is a penis, and this is a vagina. these two things make babies". i feel that proper sex ed involves things like porno. only through watching porn and researching the very act of sex did i learn half the shit i know now. none of the things i learned about sex came from school, my parents even, and very little i learned from friends who already knew what to do.
hands on experiences is the best way to learn, and porno is as hands on as it gets without actually having sex. maybe we need to rework the very definition of sex ed if we want to make sure kids learn what they are supposed to, but what do we as a county want out children to know about sex? it should be everything. i think jebus has a point here, but i can also see where g-money was coming from to. its a tough subject. not touchy, tough.
hands on experiences is the best way to learn, and porno is as hands on as it gets without actually having sex. maybe we need to rework the very definition of sex ed if we want to make sure kids learn what they are supposed to, but what do we as a county want out children to know about sex? it should be everything. i think jebus has a point here, but i can also see where g-money was coming from to. its a tough subject. not touchy, tough.