religion, oh god... gods!
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tuengo183 wrote...
verbally forcing a person onto a person can be justifiable as long as it doesn't cross the fine line called Freedom-of-Will.tuengo183 wrote...
Well, I did define it to be only "verbal, logical, and follows the guidelines of an academic argument". The free will part, although does not directly determine the outcome of this debate, does set the grounds for the logic used in this debate, but thank you for defining yourself, that makes it easier for us to be on a common ground. Now, I would assume my answer above has quite satisfy you, or do you need me to articulate?No need to artculate, but that argument is still flawed. In my oppinion, the very definition of 'forcing something' on to other human being, means that it is against their freedom of will. There for it is logically impossible to 'force' a world view on to another human being without it being against their freedom of will.
You can keep telling/explaining your world view on to another human being (FOR EXAMPLE A CHILD) over and over again, you can say to them that "you dont get any christmas presents if you dont believe in my world view," but that means you force your view on to them against their will and the other person accepts it under duress or in the hopes of reward.
Lets say the other person does accept your world view (FOR EXAMPLE A CHILD), that means he simply accepts your world view (on what ever the subject is), that though does not mean you forced it on him/her. It means the other person accepted it based on his/her own measurements of reasoning, his/her own standards of proof and his/her own knowledge of the world.
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W.O.C183
always fapping
Coconutt wrote...
tuengo183 wrote...
verbally forcing a person onto a person can be justifiable as long as it doesn't cross the fine line called Freedom-of-Will.tuengo183 wrote...
Well, I did define it to be only "verbal, logical, and follows the guidelines of an academic argument". The free will part, although does not directly determine the outcome of this debate, does set the grounds for the logic used in this debate, but thank you for defining yourself, that makes it easier for us to be on a common ground. Now, I would assume my answer above has quite satisfy you, or do you need me to articulate?Coconutt wrote...
No need to artculate, but that argument is still flawed. In my oppinion, the very definition of 'forcing something' on to other human being, means that it is against their freedom of will. There for it is logically impossible to 'force' a world view on to another human being without it being against their freedom of will.You can keep telling/explaining your world view on to another human being (FOR EXAMPLE A CHILD) over and over again, you can say to them that "you dont get any christmas presents if you dont believe in my world view," but that means you force your view on to them against their will and the other person accepts it under duress or in the hopes of reward.
Lets say the other person does accept your world view (FOR EXAMPLE A CHILD), that means he simply accepts your world view (on what ever the subject is), that though does not mean you forced it on him/her. It means the other person accepted it based on his/her own measurements of reasoning, his/her own standards of proof and his/her own knowledge of the world.
Oh, I'm not arguing for parents-children influence, sorry for that. I was arguing for whether or not a set of contradicting beliefs of a religion should be used in an argument, say, the principles of collective goodness in Buddhism against individual dignity and worth in Christianity in an argument.
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tuengo183 wrote...
Oh, I'm not arguing for parents-children influence, sorry for that. I was arguing for whether or not a set of contradicting beliefs of a religion should be used in an argument, say, the principles of collective goodness in Buddhism against individual dignity and worth in Christianity in an argument.(Thank you for the clarification!)
Well, my oppinion is that debating about 'faith' in a sense of "my faith is more usefull than your faith" like you said Buddhism vs Christianity is simply useless, because faith on anything is not based on evidence. It means you simply hold on to a world view or an idea for what ever reason OTHER than it being proved by evidence.
I can already smell somebody saying: "collective goodness and/or individual dignity are not based on faith." I totally agree, BUT when you use those words under the concept of Buddhism or Christianity, it means you tie them to the concept of biblical god or (insert what buddhist believe), and there for it is not based on evidence, it is based on faith and anything based on faith (IMO) is not good for you. Even if it turns out to be realisticly good for you, i would argue that it is so only becuase of chance.
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FinalBoss
#levelupyourgrind
Coconutt wrote...
it is based on faith and anything based on faith (IMO) is not good for you. Even if it turns out to be realisticly good for you, i would argue that it is so only becuase of chance.It may not necessarily be by chance, you have to take the placebo effect into account.
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Coconutt wrote...
Silence of the Yanderes wrote...
So the argument would be "Our God is a jealous God, so if you don't believe in him, you will go to hell, so in forcing our religion on you, we are saving your soul".That sort of thing.
That agrument is 100% tied to the belief that such a being exist, and as of right now, not a single human being on planet earth can prove that such a being exists.
Whether or not something is justified is kind of subjective though (when it comes to religion at least). If you accept the premise, then the conclusion is justified in your mind. If someone else rejects the premise, then it is unjustified in their mind.
That's why I originally used 'justifiable' rather than 'justified', because it can be justified if you accept the premise, but because the premise is neither proved nor disproved, the state of it being justified is up for debate.
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I honestly believe that religion as a whole is utterly pointless and stupid. I'm not an atheist, more of a person that thinks "who gives a shit?".
Nobody knows or has the right to know how the world began. That was so many fucking billions of years ago, so how in the hell is anyone supposed to know the ACTUAL truth? Sure there's some evidence, but that's not enough.
Religion has caused so much more problems than good things. So many people have been brutalized and murdered all because a group of nut jobs said that their "god" told them that they were superior and all "heathens" should die/burn in hell. It's ridiculous how these religions have driven people so far to do all these atrocious acts just because of a book or one man giving out an order.
The Crusades, terrorism, deranged cults, certain wars, acts of violence, all because of religion.
There's also so many religions in different parts/regions of the world. How is anyone given the right to claim that their religion is the right one? It's bullshit. The reason why there's so many religions in different parts of the world is because of the climate and culture of the country (obviously). With so many different religions all over the world how is anyone supposed to take each other seriously when they all fight because they believe in a different god and a different way of how the world was made.
To put it shortly, religion is a nuisance more than anything. It's brought terror and death throughout all the chapters of time. It's evil (which is very ironic) and would make the world a much better place if it was wiped off the face of the Earth.
That's my two cents on this subject. As for how the world started, who gives a flying shit. Let's all be like the humanists of the Renaissance and just live our lives and enjoy them to the fullest without worrying about some stupid god or higher deity.
Nobody knows or has the right to know how the world began. That was so many fucking billions of years ago, so how in the hell is anyone supposed to know the ACTUAL truth? Sure there's some evidence, but that's not enough.
Religion has caused so much more problems than good things. So many people have been brutalized and murdered all because a group of nut jobs said that their "god" told them that they were superior and all "heathens" should die/burn in hell. It's ridiculous how these religions have driven people so far to do all these atrocious acts just because of a book or one man giving out an order.
The Crusades, terrorism, deranged cults, certain wars, acts of violence, all because of religion.
There's also so many religions in different parts/regions of the world. How is anyone given the right to claim that their religion is the right one? It's bullshit. The reason why there's so many religions in different parts of the world is because of the climate and culture of the country (obviously). With so many different religions all over the world how is anyone supposed to take each other seriously when they all fight because they believe in a different god and a different way of how the world was made.
To put it shortly, religion is a nuisance more than anything. It's brought terror and death throughout all the chapters of time. It's evil (which is very ironic) and would make the world a much better place if it was wiped off the face of the Earth.
That's my two cents on this subject. As for how the world started, who gives a flying shit. Let's all be like the humanists of the Renaissance and just live our lives and enjoy them to the fullest without worrying about some stupid god or higher deity.
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Just believe in bill nye the science guy. He knows everything.
Most people are brought up into a certain religion when they have a relligious family. Derp. But they can change themselves when they become adults unless they live in a harsh society and have to keep it a secret.
I think of deities like fairies or sprites. They're spiritual entities for embodying a certain cause to put your faith in. (Note these are my personal opinions)
I cant really explain the rest because Im a catholic and I was brought up that way. I don't mind it. Im a traditional individual. But I'am also very open minded and have a broad horizon. I like understanding something then turning my nose up. I'd rather not shun what I dont understand so ambiguously.
Most people are brought up into a certain religion when they have a relligious family. Derp. But they can change themselves when they become adults unless they live in a harsh society and have to keep it a secret.
I think of deities like fairies or sprites. They're spiritual entities for embodying a certain cause to put your faith in. (Note these are my personal opinions)
I cant really explain the rest because Im a catholic and I was brought up that way. I don't mind it. Im a traditional individual. But I'am also very open minded and have a broad horizon. I like understanding something then turning my nose up. I'd rather not shun what I dont understand so ambiguously.
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Eternal Hentai Master wrote...
Nobody knows or has the right to know how the world began.What do you mean by that we don't have the 'right' to know? Of coarse we do, or are you telling us that we don't?
Eternal Hentai Master wrote...
That was so many fucking billions of years ago, so how in the hell is anyone supposed to know the ACTUAL truth?We are getting closer and closer every year to answer that question.
Eternal Hentai Master wrote...
Sure there's some evidence, but that's not enough.What is enough then?
Eternal Hentai Master wrote...
As for how the world started, who gives a flying shit. Let's all be like the humanists of the Renaissance and just live our lives and enjoy them to the fullest without worrying about some stupid god or higher deity.Answering the question "how the world started" gets us closer to your goal of not worrying about some stupid god or higher deity.
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Im a christian who takes most of the words of the bible to heart. A lot of the stuff in the old testimant i have trouble beleiving these days because of science being shoved in my face at school. I think some of the bible may actually be wrong and that he many authors of the holy book simply were not aware of what we are now.
God had to have caused the Big Bang in my opinion. How do you create something from nothing? How is it that all these objects each have their own properties? How exactly do physics work in general? What exactly is he source of things like gravity to have made them a part of physics in the first place?
God had to have caused the Big Bang in my opinion. How do you create something from nothing? How is it that all these objects each have their own properties? How exactly do physics work in general? What exactly is he source of things like gravity to have made them a part of physics in the first place?
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NutritiousGoop wrote...
I'm a christian who takes most of the words of the bible to heart.Most? How you make the differentiation between what you take to heart and what you don't take to your heart?
NutritiousGoop wrote...
A lot of the stuff in the old testament i have trouble believing these days because of science being shoved in my face at school.So you agree with the science that has been shoved into your face? Have you ever thought about the 'fact' or idea that bible was shoved into your face?
NutritiousGoop wrote...
I think some of the bible may actually be wrong and that he many authors of the holy book simply were not aware of what we are now.If you acknowledge that some parts of the bible could be wrong (or are wrong), how does it make any sense to think any part of it is true? What makes the other parts true to you?
NutritiousGoop wrote...
God had to have caused the Big Bang in my opinion.You would not even know about the theory of big bang with out science. The theory works without the assumption of deity or 'god'. You understand you are only trying to affirm the belief you already had by saying "God did it".
NutritiousGoop wrote...
How do you create something from nothing?As of right now, the 100% correct answer to that is: We do not know.
Nobody on planet earth knows the answer to that, but i will guarantee to you that you understand the issue more if you type 'Lawrence Krauss' on youtube and watch some of the videos with an open mind.
NutritiousGoop wrote...
How is it that all these objects each have their own properties?I don't know personally, but somebody might know :)
NutritiousGoop wrote...
How exactly do physics work in general? What exactly is he source of things like gravity to have made them a part of physics in the first place?If you seriously want to know answers to those questions you should watch some of the Lawrence Krauss videos like i already suggested.
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Coconutt, your post is making me think a lot. I don't know how to awnser those questions right now... But my current belief is that I should follow the teachings of Christ, but there are some parts that I don't believe anymore or don't agree with, such as the earth being made in just 7 days, or the fact that women aren't allowed to speak in church or that if you get your penis cut off ( and I'm not talking transgender when I say that) you are no longer allowed in church.
I also don't think a girl should die because is is not a virgin and unwed, because that would mean if I were raped ( or you know, it was concentual) I would be stoned while the man gets off Scott free. I'm just saying.
But getting back on the rest of the questions, I need plenty of time to think.
I also don't think a girl should die because is is not a virgin and unwed, because that would mean if I were raped ( or you know, it was concentual) I would be stoned while the man gets off Scott free. I'm just saying.
But getting back on the rest of the questions, I need plenty of time to think.
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Coconutt wrote...
I told you, i eat peoples souls and i swallow them whole.They shall call him Soul Eater!
..Anyways! On topic, but I believe in infinity/reincarnation.
-2
I believe in Doll-Christ, it's a lot like normal christ but a doll and more ass kicking in "The Book of Dolls" (and sex)
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I usually talk and act like an atheist, but the truth is, I don't know - and I don't know how much I care. I live my life the way I want, and I'd probably live a similar way irrespective of whether there is a god or gods (and an afterlife) or not. I try to be and act like a good person, both because I want to, because it usually feels nice, and because it tends to make things better for everyone involved.
If there isn't a god or an afterlife, great, I'm not gonna waste my life, I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm not gonna waste my time on religious rituals hoping to praise and appease a god and get to a heaven that probably ain't there.
If there is... well, I'll see what happens. I feel I'm a good person, so I shouldn't have a problem. A good, omniscient (and rational) god will probably/hopefully understand me and my choices. (And god hasn't smited me yet; my life's going pretty well so far, and all my issues are the result of my own problems and decisions, so...). I stand on my own merits. I do good for its own sake, not out of the hope of heaven and/or divine rewards/favour - isn't that worth bonus points? Besides, if there were a god, they gave me free will for a reason - and I'm gonna use it! I thank god for my life by enjoying it - after all, if life's a gift, I'm gonna treat it like one...
If whatever god there is condemns me... then depending on the reason, I'm not sure I'm the one with the problem. Would a good god really condemn me just for not believing in them with limited proof, or not following rules I have not been adequately informed of, if I have otherwise lived a good life? Would they create free will, only to condemn its exercise? Would such a god's heaven really be such a great place? If they've got BS rules for life on earth, wouldn't their heaven also have BS rules - and thus, not be as much fun as it should be?
And if god were not good, and his heaven not that great... would the other places be that bad? (Well, if they were annihilation... but then, that'd be just the same from my perspective as there being no afterlife...) The way I see it, the way I live, I win no matter what.
Furthermore, there are a large number of different religions. If I were to follow a religion, which one should I pick? How do I know which one holds the truth?
If there isn't a god or an afterlife, great, I'm not gonna waste my life, I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm not gonna waste my time on religious rituals hoping to praise and appease a god and get to a heaven that probably ain't there.
If there is... well, I'll see what happens. I feel I'm a good person, so I shouldn't have a problem. A good, omniscient (and rational) god will probably/hopefully understand me and my choices. (And god hasn't smited me yet; my life's going pretty well so far, and all my issues are the result of my own problems and decisions, so...). I stand on my own merits. I do good for its own sake, not out of the hope of heaven and/or divine rewards/favour - isn't that worth bonus points? Besides, if there were a god, they gave me free will for a reason - and I'm gonna use it! I thank god for my life by enjoying it - after all, if life's a gift, I'm gonna treat it like one...
If whatever god there is condemns me... then depending on the reason, I'm not sure I'm the one with the problem. Would a good god really condemn me just for not believing in them with limited proof, or not following rules I have not been adequately informed of, if I have otherwise lived a good life? Would they create free will, only to condemn its exercise? Would such a god's heaven really be such a great place? If they've got BS rules for life on earth, wouldn't their heaven also have BS rules - and thus, not be as much fun as it should be?
And if god were not good, and his heaven not that great... would the other places be that bad? (Well, if they were annihilation... but then, that'd be just the same from my perspective as there being no afterlife...) The way I see it, the way I live, I win no matter what.
Furthermore, there are a large number of different religions. If I were to follow a religion, which one should I pick? How do I know which one holds the truth?
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NutritiousGoop wrote...
Coconutt, your post is making me think a lot. I don't know how to awnser those questions right now... But my current belief is that I should follow the teachings of Christ, but there are some parts that I don't believe anymore or don't agree with, such as the earth being made in just 7 days, or the fact that women aren't allowed to speak in church or that if you get your penis cut off ( and I'm not talking transgender when I say that) you are no longer allowed in church. I also don't think a girl should die because is is not a virgin and unwed, because that would mean if I were raped ( or you know, it was concentual) I would be stoned while the man gets off Scott free. I'm just saying.
But getting back on the rest of the questions, I need plenty of time to think.[/quote/]
Dude, 2 of those are old testament (barely anyone follows that) i think it was Jesus with the new testament who kind of un-officially removed it. Relax, you're thinking too much about this. You wont go to hell for something like that. You're thinking in the wrong mindset. When it comes to all of this remember "God hates the sin not the sinner" Honestly if it comes to it i think only people like murderers and whatnot get sent to hell. You'll be fine donzmt let things like that get to you.
[quote="JustBeingM3"]I usually talk and act like an atheist, but the truth is, I don't know - and I don't know how much I care. I live my life the way I want, and I'd probably live a similar way irrespective of whether there is a god or gods (and an afterlife) or not. I try to be and act like a good person, both because I want to, because it usually feels nice, and because it tends to make things better for everyone involved.
If there isn't a god or an afterlife, great, I'm not gonna waste my life, I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm not gonna waste my time on religious rituals hoping to praise and appease a god and get to a heaven that probably ain't there.
If there is... well, I'll see what happens. I feel I'm a good person, so I shouldn't have a problem. A good, omniscient (and rational) god will probably/hopefully understand me and my choices. (And god hasn't smited me yet; my life's going pretty well so far, and all my issues are the result of my own problems and decisions, so...). I stand on my own merits. I do good for its own sake, not out of the hope of heaven and/or divine rewards/favour - isn't that worth bonus points? Besides, if there were a god, they gave me free will for a reason - and I'm gonna use it! I thank god for my life by enjoying it - after all, if life's a gift, I'm gonna treat it like one...
If whatever god there is condemns me... then depending on the reason, I'm not sure I'm the one with the problem. Would a good god really condemn me just for not believing in them with limited proof, or not following rules I have not been adequately informed of, if I have otherwise lived a good life? Would they create free will, only to condemn its exercise? Would such a god's heaven really be such a great place? If they've got BS rules for life on earth, wouldn't their heaven also have BS rules - and thus, not be as much fun as it should be?
And if god were not good, and his heaven not that great... would the other places be that bad? (Well, if they were annihilation... but then, that'd be just the same from my perspective as there being no afterlife...) The way I see it, the way I live, I win no matter what.
Furthermore, there are a large number of different religions. If I were to follow a religion, which one should I pick? How do I know which one holds the truth?
Just go with what you feel works. Or nitpick stuff from all of them and make your own code then stay openminded (assuming you want to) that there is a god. That's it really.
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I AM MY OWN RELIGION!!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!
All jokes aside, I am agnostic. For those who don't know what agnosticism is, it is a belief in which a person needs definitive proof that something does or doesn't exist. Therefore, an agnostic person doesn't reject, nor believe in any god(s), or higher power until there is proof. Also here is a poster that is related to this topic that everybody might or might not enjoy.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71KJD2O9Z5L._SY679_.jpg
All jokes aside, I am agnostic. For those who don't know what agnosticism is, it is a belief in which a person needs definitive proof that something does or doesn't exist. Therefore, an agnostic person doesn't reject, nor believe in any god(s), or higher power until there is proof. Also here is a poster that is related to this topic that everybody might or might not enjoy.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71KJD2O9Z5L._SY679_.jpg
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I am an Agnostic Theist, I believe in the spiritual, but religion are the flawed creations of humans. The force you to subscribe to them and if you don't, you suffer some punishment, even if you are a good person you are going to be punished for not subscribing. For instance, Christians say you are going to hell for joining their faith, so my response is usually, okay, I will take hell with Gandhi and you will take heaven with Vlad the Impaler.
When you say god created this and that and then science proved what really happened, it kinda makes science the enemy. If you can't be happy with god making all the rules, the complexity of creation through just by having it be, and know that science discovers the vast details, you will only make yourself look stupid as you hold on to increasingly outdated concepts.
When you say that you should pray or that god saved someone from a crash, god blessed a country, or you just thank god for something that happen. To an agnostic, it points out how little god does help the poor, the hungry, the sick, the loyal and the unlucky. God will not strike down the wicked, feed the poor, help your family or anything else. The chances of a recovery from illness is not much greater with a believer than a non believer. The poor are not the wicked, the hungry are not the nonbelievers. If this was the case, then you would have a point.
Mankind helps others whether they are god fearing or atheists, mankind isn't wicked because they don't believe in god but sometimes they are while using religious text to justify themselves.
Religion is a tool to gain power and money while keeping the masses controlled. Sure there are efforts to help others, we are human, but the power of religion has been either used or fought against by many powerful leader and this significance shouldn't be ignored.
When you say god created this and that and then science proved what really happened, it kinda makes science the enemy. If you can't be happy with god making all the rules, the complexity of creation through just by having it be, and know that science discovers the vast details, you will only make yourself look stupid as you hold on to increasingly outdated concepts.
When you say that you should pray or that god saved someone from a crash, god blessed a country, or you just thank god for something that happen. To an agnostic, it points out how little god does help the poor, the hungry, the sick, the loyal and the unlucky. God will not strike down the wicked, feed the poor, help your family or anything else. The chances of a recovery from illness is not much greater with a believer than a non believer. The poor are not the wicked, the hungry are not the nonbelievers. If this was the case, then you would have a point.
Mankind helps others whether they are god fearing or atheists, mankind isn't wicked because they don't believe in god but sometimes they are while using religious text to justify themselves.
Religion is a tool to gain power and money while keeping the masses controlled. Sure there are efforts to help others, we are human, but the power of religion has been either used or fought against by many powerful leader and this significance shouldn't be ignored.
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Was a religious person in many years, until my Brother started to show me science shows on tv, talk about it, and started to show me Magazines that talked about the universe, and the general science behind Things we see in Our daily lifes.
I am a atheist now, and I have no problem With People that are religious, but I have a big problem With the People that try to push their religion on to somebody else, and where I come from, I have been mistaken for being a satanist (that or they just didn't know what an atheist was), just because I listen to Metal and are saying that religion sometimes are just shait.
I have one big problem With religion, especially Christianity (because that is what I grew up With), and that is the Things they mean, Things like no gay marriage is just absurd in my eyes.
I am a atheist now, and I have no problem With People that are religious, but I have a big problem With the People that try to push their religion on to somebody else, and where I come from, I have been mistaken for being a satanist (that or they just didn't know what an atheist was), just because I listen to Metal and are saying that religion sometimes are just shait.
I have one big problem With religion, especially Christianity (because that is what I grew up With), and that is the Things they mean, Things like no gay marriage is just absurd in my eyes.
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ksiyas
Kanadefanboy
If there is such a thing as God and Lucifer and what not (I lean towards yes simply because heaven would be nice...) I would say that what we read in the bible might not be truth. History is written by the victor. Thus, Lucifer might not have been a villain, but a revolutionary. Think MLK. Perhaps he saw a way to make heaven better and was shunned for seeking change and made to look worse than he actually was. Perhaps "Hell" Is lucifers version of heaven.. maybe its better???? But my mind has already been manipulated into wanting to head to God's heaven so... yeah. Nuff of that.