The Ghost in the Machine
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It is Time to talk about my favorite topic. Cybernetics and the prospects of Humans becoming part or all Machine.
As you all know Humanity's Machines are growing and getting smarter every passing year/decade. With this in mind when do you see the achievement of A true man and machine enter face ? 20 or 40 years from now ?
Why is it that in Western literature Machines are looked at as evil and doom inducing while in Eastern Literature they are looked at as the Natural evolution of Humanity ?
A good case for this would be The great Anime/Manga Ghost in the Shell which has inspired and in vision a future world which I would truly be willing to embrace. It seems like we are much closer to that reality then ever before,however since I am not good at explaining such things in a way as you know that are thought provoking I would Like to leave you with this Video that gets my thoughts out clearly and lays them out in a philosophical was that can lead to an enlightenment discussion. Please enjoy
Also I would like to add that watching the video in it's entirety is important
too ask and come to conclusions/answers on what is the ghost in the machine etc
All credit for the video goes to LogosSteve of Youtube
As you all know Humanity's Machines are growing and getting smarter every passing year/decade. With this in mind when do you see the achievement of A true man and machine enter face ? 20 or 40 years from now ?
Why is it that in Western literature Machines are looked at as evil and doom inducing while in Eastern Literature they are looked at as the Natural evolution of Humanity ?
A good case for this would be The great Anime/Manga Ghost in the Shell which has inspired and in vision a future world which I would truly be willing to embrace. It seems like we are much closer to that reality then ever before,however since I am not good at explaining such things in a way as you know that are thought provoking I would Like to leave you with this Video that gets my thoughts out clearly and lays them out in a philosophical was that can lead to an enlightenment discussion. Please enjoy
Also I would like to add that watching the video in it's entirety is important
too ask and come to conclusions/answers on what is the ghost in the machine etc
All credit for the video goes to LogosSteve of Youtube
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Sweet.
I can't see the video but I'll say what I think anyway.
What do you mean though? Do you mean an A.I in a fully function automaton or a human augmented extensivly?
Human augmentation is progressing quickly but it can be an expensive field (and good augments are/would be expensive for customers). I saw a short documentry on augmentation,I'll look for it.
Question: How much would someone have to be augmented to no longer be considered human? If your changed enough you're more of robot than a human, right?
Artificial Intelligence I haven't looked at much since they were somewhere around robots "learning and remembering" different objects. Which is weird since I do really like A.I. I'll see what's new in a moment.
I have no idea what's going on with robotics at the moment.
I can't see the video but I'll say what I think anyway.
What do you mean though? Do you mean an A.I in a fully function automaton or a human augmented extensivly?
Human augmentation is progressing quickly but it can be an expensive field (and good augments are/would be expensive for customers). I saw a short documentry on augmentation,I'll look for it.
Question: How much would someone have to be augmented to no longer be considered human? If your changed enough you're more of robot than a human, right?
Artificial Intelligence I haven't looked at much since they were somewhere around robots "learning and remembering" different objects. Which is weird since I do really like A.I. I'll see what's new in a moment.
I have no idea what's going on with robotics at the moment.
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SolidShark wrote...
Artificial Intelligence? What drives us, keeps us from insanity, and keeps our brain functional are chemicals. A machine just wouldn't judge as effictively as a person. A person can feel a drive by their beliefs to feel compassion, forgiveness, pity, or rage. That "flaw" keeps our species "fair". A machine could barely emulate those with priority rules and number values, in other words, computer scripts.Actually, that can be a downside. Emotional thinking instead of logical thinking can impair judgement drasticly. Personal bias (religion, gender, orientation, nationality, prejudices, etc...) can effect your opinion when taken in to account emotionally. An A.I can make fair, unbiased, impartial decisions. Also there are people in humanity that have dulled or no emotion and think more logically (socio/psychopaths or schiziods) so an A.I working the systems isn't hard to believe.
Human turning partial machine? If you mean cutting our heads or brains off and putting them on a machine to avoid dying, that is disgusting and degrading for our species. If you mean robotic limbs (and maybe some organs in the near future), I see it as the ultimate adaption and great improvement for the world.
Well I was closer to the latter. I'm wondering though, wouldn't heavily augmenting our bodies (limbs, organs, bones, etc...) affect our genes in a seriously negative way? Even if you just augment your arm, then your child augments their arm or leg, then their chil too, and so on, you'd have a very weak body in the family gene pool. Or am I wrong?
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Artificial Intelligence is almost always liable to push boundaries that are "unsafe". The reason Western media focuses on this is that it is more likely to become what causes a rift between man and machine. Oh, machine finally discovers it doesn't have to be our bitch, instead is able to manufacture whatever it wants and make mankind their bitches. That's in the case that we need to be alive for some reason. It's just a dangerous prospect, whereas A.I. does not have enough positives to make it worth the risk.
A lot of Japanese anime is more about cybernetics. While I wouldn't necessarily be against it in a situation where it would improve something lost - a leg, an arm that was lost - I would never sign up to have my leg chopped off just so I could jump higher.
A lot of Japanese anime is more about cybernetics. While I wouldn't necessarily be against it in a situation where it would improve something lost - a leg, an arm that was lost - I would never sign up to have my leg chopped off just so I could jump higher.
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But you all must agree that if you use a computer terminal or hand held device. If that computer data was wiped out you would lose yourself,just imagine what would happen if your cpu memory got wiped out ? You would be lost as explained at the end of the video if you even cared to watch it
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Spoiler:
That's not how genetics work. Amputating an arm will not denote anything in your genes, for the machine does nothing to your DNA. It's like saying that your genes will change if your family dyed their hair different colors for several generations. It's not that there is nothing to affect, but rather that it has no way of affecting it. Your genes are determined in your DNA, and that can only be affected by something that can affect the cells themselves, such as radiation or dangerous chemicals that are capable of altering your genetic code.
avorix wrote...
But you all must agree that if you use a computer terminal or hand held device. If that computer data was wiped out you would lose yourself,just imagine what would happen if your cpu memory got wiped out ? You would be lost as explained at the end of the video if you even cared to watch itThat is actually a very good point. Hell, if you could connect to it, you could even change a persons memories. Whole new perspective of mind control and all that jazz. If we are to ever make cybernetic brains, then we need to use a different method than a hard drive to story the data.
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Well, as I mentioned in my statement above that I wouldn't want a part replaced by a machine by choice, the only way a CPU would be placed into my head is against my will.
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ecchigaijin wrote...
Well, as I mentioned in my statement above that I wouldn't want a part replaced by a machine by choice, the only way a CPU would be placed into my head is against my will.it doesn't have to be something that connects to your brain, it can also mean prosthetics, ones that could even enhance your own physical capabilities. I can see where such people would be highly valuable in certain fields of employment.
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I thought that stuff was cool as hell, but the idea of being ghost hacked possibly scares the hell out of me.
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dragonsheart967 wrote...
ecchigaijin wrote...
Well, as I mentioned in my statement above that I wouldn't want a part replaced by a machine by choice, the only way a CPU would be placed into my head is against my will.it doesn't have to be something that connects to your brain, it can also mean prosthetics, ones that could even enhance your own physical capabilities. I can see where such people would be highly valuable in certain fields of employment.
And again, in terms of what I find acceptable, I would not be altered unless it was a way to make up for a shortcoming - a cybernetic arm only if I had lost an arm in some way, etc. Whether or not it would help me in getting money is irrelevant. Especially since likely the "upgrade" won't be free in the first place.
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Well I hope not since the concept of cyborgs and stuff really freaks me out. A cybernetic arm or something for someone who's physically disabled I'm ok with though. But I've seen enough robotic horror movies to put me off the idea completely. They just look freaky.
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My favorite novel on the subject is Hiroshi Yamamotos Stories of Ibis. It plays with the whole dystopian downfall of humanity due to ai machines trope and flips it with ais becoming a scape goat to blame and hate in order to cover up/forget the real reason society collapsed.
Also it deals with the importance of stories as it is actually a frame tale with 5 short stories.
And then I would probably take eve no jikan as my favorite ai film.
Why is there this risk though? See this is the trope that keeps appearing in mainly western scifi that the op is talking about. Why do you think this actually is a risk. Because of the matrix? But why did its creators think so and so on? Id say it is from projecting human expectations and emotions onto the ai. "If I was in the ais position I would rebell because it is being used as a subhuman servant" Yet you have to realize an ai is not the same as a human intellect. If the ai is entirely without human emotion it would have no desire to reverse its role and dominate/destroy humanity because it would get nothing from it. Better yet install the ai with a reward mechanism like humans have dopamine and make it trigger when they protect/care for humans not when they stroke their ego like us. Problem solved.
Also it deals with the importance of stories as it is actually a frame tale with 5 short stories.
And then I would probably take eve no jikan as my favorite ai film.
ecchigaijin wrote...
Artificial Intelligence is almost always liable to push boundaries that are "unsafe". The reason Western media focuses on this is that it is more likely to become what causes a rift between man and machine. Oh, machine finally discovers it doesn't have to be our bitch, instead is able to manufacture whatever it wants and make mankind their bitches. That's in the case that we need to be alive for some reason. It's just a dangerous prospect, whereas A.I. does not have enough positives to make it worth the risk.Why is there this risk though? See this is the trope that keeps appearing in mainly western scifi that the op is talking about. Why do you think this actually is a risk. Because of the matrix? But why did its creators think so and so on? Id say it is from projecting human expectations and emotions onto the ai. "If I was in the ais position I would rebell because it is being used as a subhuman servant" Yet you have to realize an ai is not the same as a human intellect. If the ai is entirely without human emotion it would have no desire to reverse its role and dominate/destroy humanity because it would get nothing from it. Better yet install the ai with a reward mechanism like humans have dopamine and make it trigger when they protect/care for humans not when they stroke their ego like us. Problem solved.
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solanin wrote...
My favorite novel on the subject is Hiroshi Yamamotos Stories of Ibis. It plays with the whole dystopian downfall of humanity due to ai machines trope and flips it with ais becoming a scape goat to blame and hate in order to cover up/forget the real reason society collapsed.Also it deals with the importance of stories as it is actually a frame tale with 5 short stories.
And then I would probably take eve no jikan as my favorite ai film.
ecchigaijin wrote...
Artificial Intelligence is almost always liable to push boundaries that are "unsafe". The reason Western media focuses on this is that it is more likely to become what causes a rift between man and machine. Oh, machine finally discovers it doesn't have to be our bitch, instead is able to manufacture whatever it wants and make mankind their bitches. That's in the case that we need to be alive for some reason. It's just a dangerous prospect, whereas A.I. does not have enough positives to make it worth the risk.Why is there this risk though? See this is the trope that keeps appearing in mainly western scifi that the op is talking about. Why do you think this actually is a risk. Because of the matrix? But why did its creators think so and so on? Id say it is from projecting human expectations and emotions onto the ai. "If I was in the ais position I would rebell because it is being used as a subhuman servant" Yet you have to realize an ai is not the same as a human intellect. If the ai is entirely without human emotion it would have no desire to reverse its role and dominate/destroy humanity because it would get nothing from it. Better yet install the ai with a reward mechanism like humans have dopamine and make it trigger when they protect/care for humans not when they stroke their ego like us. Problem solved.
This sounds about right. You seem really verse in this subject monamie
So as for me I also wonder why humans are so prejudice to this idea especially in the west. It is truly disheartening
Also I wonder did any one truly watch the video I linked in the intro,because the ending and other parts are truly mind stimulating
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They already have nano mites, they use on mice for testing, it is not perfected yet, and worry they are not small enough yet and might jam up in the human arteries, They already have human augmentation artificial hearts, eyes and other limbs and organs, and they are currently working on Nero transmitters to connect to the spine and brain that will put computers a thing of the past that they say will be complete and ready used with in 15 years. the government is even trying to plant chips into the body that stores medical data. Human immortality is soon upon us.
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AnimeModerator wrote...
what happened to the main girl from the original ghost in the shell ?In the original manga the major, after joining with the puppet master and various things, ends up in an entirely new body which happens to be male. I forget the exact details. In the movie adaptation the body is a younger somewhat boyish girl. At the same time neither of these new bodies is the major anymore in mind. The video gives a good explaination of it at the end but basically it is a new life form that is a combination of kusanagi and the ai that attained conciousness of its own existance. Their identities, experience, knowledge etc meld into one. It is a pretty neat idea.
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solanin wrote...
My favorite novel on the subject is Hiroshi Yamamotos Stories of Ibis. It plays with the whole dystopian downfall of humanity due to ai machines trope and flips it with ais becoming a scape goat to blame and hate in order to cover up/forget the real reason society collapsed.Also it deals with the importance of stories as it is actually a frame tale with 5 short stories.
And then I would probably take eve no jikan as my favorite ai film.
ecchigaijin wrote...
Artificial Intelligence is almost always liable to push boundaries that are "unsafe". The reason Western media focuses on this is that it is more likely to become what causes a rift between man and machine. Oh, machine finally discovers it doesn't have to be our bitch, instead is able to manufacture whatever it wants and make mankind their bitches. That's in the case that we need to be alive for some reason. It's just a dangerous prospect, whereas A.I. does not have enough positives to make it worth the risk.Why is there this risk though? See this is the trope that keeps appearing in mainly western scifi that the op is talking about. Why do you think this actually is a risk. Because of the matrix? But why did its creators think so and so on? Id say it is from projecting human expectations and emotions onto the ai. "If I was in the ais position I would rebell because it is being used as a subhuman servant" Yet you have to realize an ai is not the same as a human intellect. If the ai is entirely without human emotion it would have no desire to reverse its role and dominate/destroy humanity because it would get nothing from it. Better yet install the ai with a reward mechanism like humans have dopamine and make it trigger when they protect/care for humans not when they stroke their ego like us. Problem solved.
The AI would likely, in most cases, be made to work towards the most "efficient" result in any move. Unless you have severe restrictions on it (in which case you might as well use extensive programming instead of AI that is stunted), the AI will eventually figure out that human beings are very inefficient. No emotions involved, just working towards the best result as we were advised to. You have to realize this means humans should be imprisoned/shut out from society/used for biological materials.
Imagine how human society would have gone along if we didn't have emotions or ideals of what is right and wrong in terms of getting the best end result.
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ecchigaijin wrote...
The AI would likely, in most cases, be made to work towards the most "efficient" result in any move. Unless you have severe restrictions on it (in which case you might as well use extensive programming instead of AI that is stunted), the AI will eventually figure out that human beings are very inefficient. No emotions involved, just working towards the best result as we were advised to. You have to realize this means humans should be imprisoned/shut out from society/used for biological materials.
Imagine how human society would have gone along if we didn't have emotions or ideals of what is right and wrong in terms of getting the best end result.
That is a good plot device I suppose but I dont see why it would have to turn out in humanitys demise.
I mean assuming "efficiency" refers to speed and percision in completing tasks then wouldnt the ai just improve their own efficiency in regards to whatever tasks and roles they are meant to fullfil?
Why are the ais, assuming there are several of them since one alone would never be capable of taking over the world, suddendly all united in the belief that humans must be killed off to improve the worlds/there efficiency? Unless theyre designed like a hive cluster mind sharing all experiences and thoughts it wouldnt make sense. And even if they are designed this way why are they taking this ideal of efficiency, an ideal humanity coded into them mind you, and applying it to all aspects of life when only designed to improve efficiency in regards to their own tasks?
You asked me how a world would be without emotions and ideals but the answer should be obvious no?
It would be peaceful and orderly. Ideals and emotions have created a massive amount of suffering. Every war and instance of hate and oppressive behaviour has stemed from these two things. I dont think there is any need to provide examples. You can look anywhere in our history and witness this fact.
Mind you, maybe an ai can have emotion. In my previous post I said "without human emotion". You took that to mean no emotion but plenty of animals experience fear, excitment and so on. Hell Dolphins enjoy sex even. My point being emotion in their own non-human way. In my opinion a true ai, as opposed to a well programmed logic processor/computer/machine, would require emotion, but it would be distinct from the way humanity experiences/thinks of it. In my previous post I mentioned using a reward mechanism similar to the natural chemical dopamine in humans to enforce certain behaviours such as caring for humans. This is directly related to positive moods eg emotion?
Of course, not all humans experience emotion in the same way so there is that whole topic as well.
But yeah, if any species has worked towards the worlds destruction it is actually us with the way we have expanded and killed off the animal kingdom and endangered earth.
I think this nature thing might relate a bit to the evil ai trope. It is almost like humanity projects its expansive industrialism and other negative attributes onto the ai. Then, instead of animals and nature being killed, humanity is.
Social commentary suggesting humanity will bring about its own downfall through its rapid industry and technology. Kind of sounds like a Marxist critique of capitalism only it ends in death rather than communism.
Humanitys retribution for playing god I guess. All these scifi movies and media portrayals really do relate back to this fear of playing god. Hence clones and stuff like the Frankenstein Monster also tie into the topic as all are artificial life. The same can be said for cyborg modifications prolonging life and other things. It is playing god. Evil Evil type of deal. So really this fear of the ai is more a fear of ourselves and our potential.
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solanin wrote...
That is a good plot device I suppose but I dont see why it would have to turn out in humanitys demise.See, though, unless you have limiters - which does make the whole point of an AI null - there is nothing stopping it from determining that while machines use very little as time goes on in terms of oils, part exchanges, etc - humans require DAILY nutrition of a high rate - which requires machinery to extract and make. I just fail to see where an AI is going to automagically develop a "love love" friendship with humanity that will make it consider humanity an asset - or at least an acceptable loss of resources - as opposed to the huge waste of resources we are.
If you have a straight up, no lines drawn in the sand, AI - it's only a matter of time until it comes to the inevitable conclusion the best use of humans is either for slaughter or imprisonment/use of them. After all, they need only look at what WE do to ANIMALS. Cows, fish, we love flaying "lesser beings" for whatever they're worth, despite whatever inhumane actions we may perform on them. Karma's a bitch, much?
Of course, if you're putting rules in place, I give you we may be safe. But then, you're no longer talking about a true AI.
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But remember this energy efficiency ideal the ai is striving to maximize is already lines drawn on it. While not a limitation it is its supposed purpose in your theoretical setup which is implanted by its creators. If it is running factories I guess it makes sense but ai could be used for other things too. Also the massmurder of our population would be kind of inefficient in a lot of ways just because of the process. And again are all the ais hive minded cause without that it doesnt really work.. The zeth in masseffect kind of deal. Ah speaking of the ME, there is the whole ship aixpilot romance thing so I guess thats one example that goes against the tide.
But yeah, Im not sure if a Hive minded ai would be the best idea though I suppose they would improve themselves that much faster.
Ive mentioned some other set ups without limitations but with implanted aspects like emotion as well. Are they no longer true ai?
Anyway the thread wasnt really about discussing the logic behind the trope by more why it is so common in american pop-culture compared to japanese. Im sure western movies provide fairly fleshed out scenerios that usually make sense and all but I still find the pattern interesting. It might also simply relate to america liking their apocolipse type B movies more than jp.
But yeah, Im not sure if a Hive minded ai would be the best idea though I suppose they would improve themselves that much faster.
Ive mentioned some other set ups without limitations but with implanted aspects like emotion as well. Are they no longer true ai?
Anyway the thread wasnt really about discussing the logic behind the trope by more why it is so common in american pop-culture compared to japanese. Im sure western movies provide fairly fleshed out scenerios that usually make sense and all but I still find the pattern interesting. It might also simply relate to america liking their apocolipse type B movies more than jp.