Which is better, believing in a god or not?
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darkblack wrote...
The question you should ask is, "What do I mean by God?"If you mean God = guy who wears a red coat and rides a sleigh via flying reindeer and giving presents to everyone every Christmas.
Then it's a matter of factual inquiry. You don't have to research this. Let's find out through scientific consensus.
Can a reindeer fly? no...
Is it possible to travel around the globe and handing out presents to every living person? no...
Then God doesn't exists.
For me, however, I believe in my God who tells me to drink as much beer and have as much sex as I want. So I like him.
I think you tried to sound smart, but it seems to me you just talked about drinking and a fictional Christmas character :I
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Peace-Sama wrote...
darkblack wrote...
The question you should ask is, "What do I mean by God?"If you mean God = guy who wears a red coat and rides a sleigh via flying reindeer and giving presents to everyone every Christmas.
Then it's a matter of factual inquiry. You don't have to research this. Let's find out through scientific consensus.
Can a reindeer fly? no...
Is it possible to travel around the globe and handing out presents to every living person? no...
Then God doesn't exists.
For me, however, I believe in my God who tells me to drink as much beer and have as much sex as I want. So I like him.
I think you tried to sound smart, but it seems to me you just talked about drinking and a fictional Christmas character :I
Let's begin by the definition of God, then let's inquire whether such a thing exists. That's how language works. Let's think of a table. Do 4 legged, wooden (or plastic etc etc) furnitures, whose purpose is to provide a elevation for plates and food, exist? Now we defined it, we now look for such a thing in our kitchen. If we find them, then it's believable.
Define to me what a God is, and we can talk whether there's a value in believing such a thing, or whether a God exist...
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Chlor wrote...
Oh, hey Neo, I was waiting for your response, and my ava is as awesome as the artist who created the original pic, but I don't expect you to have an eye for good street-art.OT: It's obvious that you didn't read my post, again, you should start off by doing that. I clearly stated that I personally don't believe in any god, but that I wish that there actually was an afterlife, because honestly, what would you prefer? Living in paradise for the rest of your life, or going out like a candle and only have the maggots to feed of your dead body?
The reason I can't believe in the humans around me is because the general public consists of selfish pricks that only make the world an even worse place than what it already is, if believing in something would help them become better people then that's a good thing, at least imo. I hold the conviction that what a person does, not what they think, dictates if that person is "good" or "bad"(concepts which are completely personal as well), and if someone does good because they believe some thunder wizard in the sky will reward them for it thats a good thing. The fact that there most likely will be no reward is a problem that they have to deal with themselves. As I also stated in my earlier post, the one that you didn't read past the first few lines of, the problem is when people do bad things because they think the wizard in the sky will reward them for that instead; but there are also people who do bad things even if they don't care about the wizard, people who even do bad things against those people just because they believe something, and that's an equally big problem.
The existence of a higher being is something that will never be proved nor disproved, and as long as people don't feel the need to go rampage on those that believe different it shouldn't matter what makes them become good people.
Your pic has no subtlety. It's simplistic.
All I saw was that you're personally agnostic, like usual. First off, you have to earn that paradise, correct? By being a good Christian and all that? I won't limit myself that way. Also, noone can ever deserve paradise, at that point, they would have reached perfection.
Also, I like these quotes:
"Wasted life, you'll waste the afterlife." - Modest Mouse
"Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically enriched guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. We are all connected: To each other biologically, to the earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically. That makes me smile. And I actually feel quite large at the end of that.
We are in the universe, and the universe is in us." - Neil deGrasse Tyson
I live for now, and that's fine, because life is the longest thing you could possibly experience. That, you can know for sure, Chlor.
Also, here's logic disproving God: God should just show himself to disprove all the nonbelievers, it's easy as one-two-three. But why doesn't he? To test our faith. How is this test fair? It's not. A rich girl born and raised in a Christian home will definitely be able to hold her faith better than the dying, starving African child. Either God isn't fair, and thus not benevolent, or he doesn't exist.
Then why don't YOU make the world a better place? The world has good people, strangers that are willing to lend a hand no matter who you are. If there aren't, then I will be that person.
If getting a cookie is all it takes to make you good, congratulations, you have a commitment to and understanding of justice as flimsy as paper. People who do things because of a magic thunder wizard in the sky are just plain stupid, whether good or bad.
Mithrandir wrote...
Haha I love it how Chlor kept using the "Wizard" term. Anyways, Neo, we all have different motivations in life, or inspirations, if people need to believe in the Wizard to be a better person, does that mean they'd be bad (or worse off) if they didn't believe in the Wizard? Not really, just means they would live their lives differently, but that's besides the point. You're assuming that people who believe in God are inherently not good, but are good because of fear of divine punishment, if I read between the lines, and that, good sir, is a generalization, and it makes you seem really ignorant, since, of course, not all people feel that way.What I hate about religion is how it makes some people discriminate each other based on their belief system. And the saddest part is, the lack-thereof (religion) also makes some biased against people that believe in God, because they feel those people are blind, or ignorant, among other things, which in turn makes you as ignorant and prejudiced as you say they supposedly are.
Yes, they probably would be worse off if they didn't believe in a magic thunder wizard, and they need real help with that, like an education. Yep, people who actually believe in a magic thunder wizard are stupid. If fear of divine punishment isn't what's keeping them in line, then what is? Their inherent goodness? Then it's their inherent goodness, not a belief in a magic thunder wizard. So why do we need a magic thunder wizard?
Yep, religion makes people discriminate each other based on belief. Yep, atheists don't like religious people. I really don't think you're using prejudice correctly... I'm not prejudiced against religious people, I'm prejudiced against idiocy. If I was prejudiced against religious people, then it wouldn't matter if there was a magic thunder wizard in the sky or not, I just plain hate “religious” people. But no, I just hate idiocy. If you don't hate idiocy, there's something wrong with you. Actually, you haven't even for one second considered religion can be stupid?
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So you really think you're not being prejudiced against people that follow a religion? You automatically assume that people are idiots for believing in something like the Magic Thunder Wizard, but a lot of people need that, they can be weak minded, or they need answers for things in life, who knows, but it makes people feel like they belong, humans are fragile things, not everyone can reach the same conclusions, you should accept that, without having to insult them for being weak minded. You're just being a bully basically.
Of course I believe religion can be be incredibly ridiculous at times. But live and let live, better yourself.
(Sorry for any typos, not my main language.)
Of course I believe religion can be be incredibly ridiculous at times. But live and let live, better yourself.
(Sorry for any typos, not my main language.)
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Study said, people who are not religious are prone to sickness, probably because of they life responsibly.. i read that on sciencedaily.com
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NeoStriker wrote...
Your pic has no subtlety. It's simplistic.All I saw was that you're personally agnostic, like usual. First off, you have to earn that paradise, correct? By being a good Christian and all that? I won't limit myself that way. Also, noone can ever deserve paradise, at that point, they would have reached perfection.
Also, I like these quotes:
"Wasted life, you'll waste the afterlife." - Modest Mouse
"Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically enriched guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. We are all connected: To each other biologically, to the earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically. That makes me smile. And I actually feel quite large at the end of that.
We are in the universe, and the universe is in us." - Neil deGrasse Tyson
I live for now, and that's fine, because life is the longest thing you could possibly experience. That, you can know for sure, Chlor.
Also, here's logic disproving God: God should just show himself to disprove all the nonbelievers, it's easy as one-two-three. But why doesn't he? To test our faith. How is this test fair? It's not. A rich girl born and raised in a Christian home will definitely be able to hold her faith better than the dying, starving African child. Either God isn't fair, and thus not benevolent, or he doesn't exist.
Then why don't YOU make the world a better place? The world has good people, strangers that are willing to lend a hand no matter who you are. If there aren't, then I will be that person.
If getting a cookie is all it takes to make you good, congratulations, you have a commitment to and understanding of justice as flimsy as paper. People who do things because of a magic thunder wizard in the sky are just plain stupid, whether good or bad.
It is meant to be simplistic, it's street-art, I guess you need to have seen the whole picture to get it, but don't worry, I already have my next ava decided, so you'll have to deal with this one for only a few more days.
And back on topic: No, pepole don't have to have been a good christian in order to get into paradise; Religion is something personal, and the discussion at hand is not about Christianity, or even about any sort of organized religion, a God, not the God. Now ofc Christianity is counted among these, and while you might think that Christianity/Religion is stupid, what gives you the right to call them out on it? Do they call out on you being anti-religion? I bet some do, but most doesn't.
As much as I respect that you quoting Modest Mouse, how does one waste a life? By not being productive? By not living it to it fullest? By not living only for your own happiness? By living only for your own happiness? I don't think a life can be wasted, life simply is what you make of it.
And for deGrasse Tyson, I hope you do realize that he is an outspoken agnostic that have written several books from that point of view? In his article "Holy Wars" he even quotes Galileo in order to describe his belief:
"My personal views are entirely pragmatic, and partly resonate with those of Galileo, [...] 'In my mind God wrote two books. The first book is the Bible, where humans can find the answers to their questions on values and morals. The second book of God is the book of nature, which allows humans to use observation and experiment to answer our own questions about the universe.'"
An yet again you're to focused on Christianity, no one was pinpointing this discussion down that way before you came along, and I actually thought you used the Thunder Wizard to parody all the religions. And yes, I agree, if God exists he should just reveal himself to the world and get this shit over with, but "for reasons we can't fathom" as a devout Christian would say, he doesn't, and no, God is neither fair nor benevolent, we have already had that discussion once.
I try to make the world a better place in the ways I can without compromising myself, I have no problem with admitting that I'm way too selfish to put any extensive work into it and that I'm more worried about my own comfortability than anything else, but that doesn't mean abandoning the rest of the world.
I could say that people who believe that there is a thing called justice are just plain stupid, because imo there isn't, but the reason to why people do good is as irrelevant as the concept of good is subjective. As long as they do as they please and don't hurt anyone else in the process, what's the fucking problem?
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Mithrandir wrote...
So you really think you're not being prejudiced against people that follow a religion? You automatically assume that people are idiots for believing in something like the Magic Thunder Wizard, but a lot of people need that, they can be weak minded, or they need answers for things in life, who knows, but it makes people feel like they belong, humans are fragile things, not everyone can reach the same conclusions, you should accept that, without having to insult them for being weak minded. You're just being a bully basically. Of course I believe religion can be be incredibly ridiculous at times. But live and let live, better yourself.
(Sorry for any typos, not my main language.)
If religion can be incredibly ridiculous, why have it? We already have enough ridiculous things in our lives. People who need to believe in a magic thunder wizard need something, far more "real" to believe in. Go make a friend, get a pet dog, go build something with your own two hands.
Chlor wrote...
NeoStriker wrote...
Your pic has no subtlety. It's simplistic.All I saw was that you're personally agnostic, like usual. First off, you have to earn that paradise, correct? By being a good Christian and all that? I won't limit myself that way. Also, noone can ever deserve paradise, at that point, they would have reached perfection.
Also, I like these quotes:
"Wasted life, you'll waste the afterlife." - Modest Mouse
"Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically enriched guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. We are all connected: To each other biologically, to the earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically. That makes me smile. And I actually feel quite large at the end of that.
We are in the universe, and the universe is in us." - Neil deGrasse Tyson
I live for now, and that's fine, because life is the longest thing you could possibly experience. That, you can know for sure, Chlor.
Also, here's logic disproving God: God should just show himself to disprove all the nonbelievers, it's easy as one-two-three. But why doesn't he? To test our faith. How is this test fair? It's not. A rich girl born and raised in a Christian home will definitely be able to hold her faith better than the dying, starving African child. Either God isn't fair, and thus not benevolent, or he doesn't exist.
Then why don't YOU make the world a better place? The world has good people, strangers that are willing to lend a hand no matter who you are. If there aren't, then I will be that person.
If getting a cookie is all it takes to make you good, congratulations, you have a commitment to and understanding of justice as flimsy as paper. People who do things because of a magic thunder wizard in the sky are just plain stupid, whether good or bad.
It is meant to be simplistic, it's street-art, I guess you need to have seen the whole picture to get it, but don't worry, I already have my next ava decided, so you'll have to deal with this one for only a few more days.
And back on topic: No, pepole don't have to have been a good christian in order to get into paradise; Religion is something personal, and the discussion at hand is not about Christianity, or even about any sort of organized religion, a God, not the God. Now ofc Christianity is counted among these, and while you might think that Christianity/Religion is stupid, what gives you the right to call them out on it? Do they call out on you being anti-religion? I bet some do, but most doesn't.
As much as I respect that you quoting Modest Mouse, how does one waste a life? By not being productive? By not living it to it fullest? By not living only for your own happiness? By living only for your own happiness? I don't think a life can be wasted, life simply is what you make of it.
And for deGrasse Tyson, I hope you do realize that he is an outspoken agnostic that have written several books from that point of view? In his article "Holy Wars" he even quotes Galileo in order to describe his belief:
"My personal views are entirely pragmatic, and partly resonate with those of Galileo, [...] 'In my mind God wrote two books. The first book is the Bible, where humans can find the answers to their questions on values and morals. The second book of God is the book of nature, which allows humans to use observation and experiment to answer our own questions about the universe.'"
An yet again you're to focused on Christianity, no one was pinpointing this discussion down that way before you came along, and I actually thought you used the Thunder Wizard to parody all the religions. And yes, I agree, if God exists he should just reveal himself to the world and get this shit over with, but "for reasons we can't fathom" as a devout Christian would say, he doesn't, and no, God is neither fair nor benevolent, we have already had that discussion once.
I try to make the world a better place in the ways I can without compromising myself, I have no problem with admitting that I'm way too selfish to put any extensive work into it and that I'm more worried about my own comfortability than anything else, but that doesn't mean abandoning the rest of the world.
I could say that people who believe that there is a thing called justice are just plain stupid, because imo there isn't, but the reason to why people do good is as irrelevant as the concept of good is subjective. As long as they do as they please and don't hurt anyone else in the process, what's the fucking problem?
All I'm saying is, your pic should have a sex mustache on top of the gas mask, where her upper lip should be.
I associate "The God" with the Christian God; with benevolence, omnipotence, and fairness. What else is he supposed to be? If you're believing in anything else that's not any of those three, then why the hell are you believing in that? Regardless of whether he exists or not, would you willingly support him if he was malevolent, just because he exists?
I believe someone is wasting their life when they limit it. You are born free, and to be anything less is a waste.
Eh, I still like the quote. It's the quote that's important.
I'm a whimsical guy. One day I could be helping you get laid, and the next I'm having sex with the person you got laid with. Awwwwwright.
Justice exists. If it doesn't, I will make it so. If someone is doing "good" because they get a cookie at the end, they have an understanding and commitment to "good" as flimsy as paper. Which means they could just as easily be doing "bad"
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haha.. I believe in God... but although I believe in Him, recently I have been having time away from Him and notice how quickly life gets busy when you don't have time. It's like everything around you is made to occupy your time so that you are not able to contact God or spend time reading the Bible etc. It's funny because it's is like there is something keeping you away/occupied and is somewhat difficult to reverse.
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Mr.TifaLockhart wrote...
Its always good to have faith in something.Scientology and various other cults make this statement iffy.
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NeoStriker wrote...
All I'm saying is, your pic should have a sex mustache on top of the gas mask, where her upper lip should be.I associate "The God" with the Christian God; with benevolence, omnipotence, and fairness. What else is he supposed to be? If you're believing in anything else that's not any of those three, then why the hell are you believing in that? Regardless of whether he exists or not, would you willingly support him if he was malevolent, just because he exists?
I believe someone is wasting their life when they limit it. You are born free, and to be anything less is a waste.
Eh, I still like the quote. It's the quote that's important.
I'm a whimsical guy. One day I could be helping you get laid, and the next I'm having sex with the person you got laid with. Awwwwwright.
Justice exists. If it doesn't, I will make it so. If someone is doing "good" because they get a cookie at the end, they have an understanding and commitment to "good" as flimsy as paper. Which means they could just as easily be doing "bad
I guess that would be doable, and something quite typical for this sort of picture.
But we're not talking about the God, we're talking about a God, any God, and even if we do take the Christian God we who have read the Bible realizes that he is pretty fucked up, giving humanity free will to doubt his existence, doesn't tell us what he wants etc, then punish us when we do wrong. The Christian God is benevolent and fair against those who supposedly lives after his rules to the point, but it's impossible for a human to do so. Of course this is just my own opinion, and other people will interpret the message of the Bible differently, and if they're comfortable with that, so should you be. On to the last point; Even if there were some kind of higher being I can't possible be sure that I would follow its commands.
Limiting your life? I see where that comes from, but I don't agree that being religious limits your life in a bad way, as long as you're not an extremist, but in that case you got bigger issues to deal with, and this goes for devout anti-religious people as well.
Yes, the quote is very beautiful and I like it as well, but I don't see the relevance to the discussion at hand, so I assumed you meant it in an atheistic way of thinking, that we're connected to each other on a scientific level as an argument for the nonexistence of God. My bad.
Justice is something subjective, based of morals that in turn simply consists of opinions, thus it doesn't really exist.
I'll assume that you occasionally do good stuff right? Why? Why do you confirm to doing "good", instead of the usually more profitable "bad"? What do YOU get out of it?
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Belief can be a powerful thing - lots of examples in history. Personally I was not raised very religiously but I believe in god and stand by my religion. It’s nice to feel like you’re not completely alone, talking to god gives me mental confidence in whatever I do and often I succeed.
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this is a very interesting topic, in which tons of answers could be presented at your lap yet choose to ignore answers which does not rule your favor.... I believe in God, though i don't believe in a particular religion, for me God is too big for one religion, and to those who think that God does not exist, i say "God is that than which nothing greater could be conceive" as said by St. Anselm in his ontological argument, thus creating a criteria for the existence of God which is; Reality and Mind... relying on Faith is good, but proving God exist by Logic is something most people are ignorant of.... i am open for arguments ^_^
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Lughost
the Lugoat
Who's to say if believing in a God is better than not? For many people believing in something is what gets them through the day or motivates them through life, it doesn't even necessarily have to be a God. Being an atheist I can say that I get by just fine without believing in a God but I can see the appeal of it.
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(I can't believe this topic has 2000+ views) I want to understand what I must do in my life as of now I'm confused because I am lost as of late because of the loss of my sister.
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My opinion on the matter, in a nut shell...
If God created Lucifer, then God created evil. If God created evil, then God is not completely good. Therefore, there is no true good or evil. Simply things that are perceived as one or the other. Everything has its purpose, everything has its place, and so everything is good in its own right.
How would you know what it means to be truly altruistic without seeing someone who is truly greedy?
Mind you, I don't believe in the Father-God of the Chrislemews (Christians, Muslims, and Hebrews... Why say them all when they all pretty much worship the same deity?), but I do believe in a higher power.
And as far as Atheism goes, that train of thought can be brought down with their own logic. Atheists believe that there is no higher power than themselves, fair enough. But let me ask you this, Atheists... Do you fear anything? I really mean that. Anything. If you fear something then it has power over you in a sense. If there is supposed to be no higher power than you, how can you be afraid?
If God created Lucifer, then God created evil. If God created evil, then God is not completely good. Therefore, there is no true good or evil. Simply things that are perceived as one or the other. Everything has its purpose, everything has its place, and so everything is good in its own right.
How would you know what it means to be truly altruistic without seeing someone who is truly greedy?
Mind you, I don't believe in the Father-God of the Chrislemews (Christians, Muslims, and Hebrews... Why say them all when they all pretty much worship the same deity?), but I do believe in a higher power.
And as far as Atheism goes, that train of thought can be brought down with their own logic. Atheists believe that there is no higher power than themselves, fair enough. But let me ask you this, Atheists... Do you fear anything? I really mean that. Anything. If you fear something then it has power over you in a sense. If there is supposed to be no higher power than you, how can you be afraid?
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Edward_SeaKitten wrote...
And as far as Atheism goes, that train of thought can be brought down with their own logic. Atheists believe that there is no higher power than themselves, fair enough. But let me ask you this, Atheists... Do you fear anything? I really mean that. Anything. If you fear something then it has power over you in a sense. If there is supposed to be no higher power than you, how can you be afraid?Fail. This train of thought doesn't work at all, as most atheists believe in gravity. Also, that's not the definition of an atheist either. It is Greek in origin (atheos) or more simply 'without god'.
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Tegumi
"im always cute"
Hahaha, he took the term "higher power" in a literal sense and went to town with it! That's hilarious.
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Chlor wrote...
NeoStriker wrote...
All I'm saying is, your pic should have a sex mustache on top of the gas mask, where her upper lip should be.I associate "The God" with the Christian God; with benevolence, omnipotence, and fairness. What else is he supposed to be? If you're believing in anything else that's not any of those three, then why the hell are you believing in that? Regardless of whether he exists or not, would you willingly support him if he was malevolent, just because he exists?
I believe someone is wasting their life when they limit it. You are born free, and to be anything less is a waste.
Eh, I still like the quote. It's the quote that's important.
I'm a whimsical guy. One day I could be helping you get laid, and the next I'm having sex with the person you got laid with. Awwwwwright.
Justice exists. If it doesn't, I will make it so. If someone is doing "good" because they get a cookie at the end, they have an understanding and commitment to "good" as flimsy as paper. Which means they could just as easily be doing "bad
I guess that would be doable, and something quite typical for this sort of picture.
But we're not talking about the God, we're talking about a God, any God, and even if we do take the Christian God we who have read the Bible realizes that he is pretty fucked up, giving humanity free will to doubt his existence, doesn't tell us what he wants etc, then punish us when we do wrong. The Christian God is benevolent and fair against those who supposedly lives after his rules to the point, but it's impossible for a human to do so. Of course this is just my own opinion, and other people will interpret the message of the Bible differently, and if they're comfortable with that, so should you be. On to the last point; Even if there were some kind of higher being I can't possible be sure that I would follow its commands.
Limiting your life? I see where that comes from, but I don't agree that being religious limits your life in a bad way, as long as you're not an extremist, but in that case you got bigger issues to deal with, and this goes for devout anti-religious people as well.
Yes, the quote is very beautiful and I like it as well, but I don't see the relevance to the discussion at hand, so I assumed you meant it in an atheistic way of thinking, that we're connected to each other on a scientific level as an argument for the nonexistence of God. My bad.
Justice is something subjective, based of morals that in turn simply consists of opinions, thus it doesn't really exist.
I'll assume that you occasionally do good stuff right? Why? Why do you confirm to doing "good", instead of the usually more profitable "bad"? What do YOU get out of it?
Sorry I couldn't respond until now.
You didn't get the point of that paragraph at all? I said if you're believing in anything that's not fair, benevolent, and omnipotent, why would you believe in that?
Not sure? So say a God does exist, and he's also coincidentally causing all sorts of destruction and mayhem, you'll still be "not sure that I would follow its commands"?
Whether or not religion limits your life can be debated. For now, I say that babies are not born Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and what other religion.
No, I mean, you just brought in him being agnostic for no reason. I was using the quote as a retort to your saying that it's fine if some people need a religion to be good or to not feel lost in this world. The quote was basically an answer to a "What is the meaning of life?" question, which you answered with "Belief in God can be a possible answer". Which I disagree with.
I agree. Justice doesn't truly exist. The world will never be perfect. But the power of human beings is their ability to get closer and closer. Just because you think "it doesn't exist" doesn't mean you can't try to find a universal justice.
Doing "good" doesn't mean you're not supposed to get anything back. In fact, "good" in my personal philosophy means you're supposed to get something productive out of it.