Fate/stay night - WHAT IF we really have a Holy Grail War?

Oh I forgot about the wise king, damn I should have done him. I've been looking for a king that's capable of matching Saber and Gilgamesh as well as being capable as a Servant but funnily enough I've been struggling with the task.

Should add a form of Clairvoyance since he is one of the 48 prophet kings. Golden Rule should be higher maybe, Solomon's reputation for intelligence was matched by his fortune. A high level of Item Creation too, he's renowned for the boon of mystical treasures stored in his vault. Maybe Dominion of the Holy King should be changed to a very powerful version of Animal Dialogue.

His Noble Phantasm reminds me of Bellerophon but reversed.

Was trying to build him from what he was famous for but.. eh. True he may have used guns as he had a government post before he rebelled. He could've had a saber and a pistol at the time since that was standard issue.

A reason why I didn't use Urduja and other Philippine legend is that they're loosely related to another country's folklore. One in particular is the story of malakas and maganda who was said to be born from bamboo - this.. was one of the reasons why I shy away from that. Another was that it's rather hard to back up their traits as heroic legends before the spanish era is really more of communal rumors.

Anyways, can Ivan count? If he does, I call dibs.

Yup, guns are a big no no.

Well, Maria Blanca has a solid legend and very precise source. If you think about it, a lot of sorcerers in legends don't really have very long stories. The fact that she was able to achieve everything that she wanted using her magic solidifies her as a legend. It also helps that everything that she did was kinda noble, which would qualify her as a hero.

Ivan? Lots of Ivans in history.

Either Scylla or Bisclavret as Berserker classes.

Scylla can count as she was technically human (like medusa), I don't see any other class than berserker that can fit her (aside eventually caster).


Bisclavret is a character from a small breton legend, and is a baron and an unique werewolf, he actually wasn't violent like other werewolves of legends. He became enraged when his wife betrayed him for another man and trapped him in his wolf form, he avenged himself by disfiguring his ex-wife, tearing off her nose. He actually got a good end, as he was brought back to his human form. I think he'd also apply to classes linked to chivalry.

Russia's Ivan the Great-Terrible. Either him or Genghis Khan. Did someone turned him in yet?

Oh him. He is... an interesting figure. I consider his early reign a very good one, however, he became cray cray at his later years.
Genghis Khan... now that definitely qualifies as a legend.
I don't remember either.

I feel like guns can be justified but only if what the person did with that gun was REALLY amazing. For example, Simo Häyhä "The White Death" who had over 1000 confirmed kills over the course of 100 days(5 kills per day nonstop) by himself. He literally killed an entire battalion(over 100 men) by himself and was not spotted once. Even the reputed Russian sniper platoons sent after him came back in body bags. Eventually the Russian forces managed to find him and deal a supposedly lethal blow but days later he returned to friendly forces with half of his face missing. He's regarded by many as the most successful sniper in history. That's pretty impressive, even with modern technology most snipers in will usually average a dozen kills in a single operation and surviving with that count is another matter entirely.

Yeah someone has already done Genghis Khan, though they specified him as Archer so you can do his Rider class if you want.

I don't remember Ivan the Terrible being reputable for his skills with weaponry or magic so that's like half of the classes down, you would have to do something like Rider or Archer that epitomize on Noble Phantasms.

The thing with guns is this, anyone can use them as long as they are trained. In this era and time, anyone can bring out a gun, shoot a lot of people, and kill thousands. A Heroic Spirit is the one and only of his/her time. The fact that now, everyone can pretty much do what another has done really makes it difficult to be a Heroic Spirit.
Also this, what did he use? A gun. Can he do that using another gun? Yup.
To be a Heroic Spirit you have to break fate or be worshiped (not talking about pure religion here) in some way, both are very hard today.

Here is a direct quote from Nasu
"Although modern weapons are powerful, it is difficult for the users of modern weapons to be classified as Heroic Spirits. The advantage of modern weapons is "anyone can use them as long as they were trained", thus it is difficult for the user to become a Heroic Spirit, whose definition is "the one and only". The users of modern weapons are faceless heroes. If there are indeed heroes who are loaded with modern weapons, the users will not become Heroic Spirits, as they are merely "experts anyone can achieve through sufficient training". The actual Heroic Spirits being worshiped will be the "greatest weapon of that era". However, for the weapon to become a Heroic Spirit in this case, it must harbour a soul."

Well Simo Häyhä is considered the most successful sniper in history so that would be considered worship as well as novelty. The time period was during the Russian Winter War of 1939-1940, so it's not modern. In the Russian winter blanketed in snow he operated for 100 days behind enemy lines without being seen while keeping a consistent kill count, that's not something anybody can do even if they pulled a trigger for half their life. The Mosin–Nagant is one of the only rifles to operate flawlessly in that temperature for that lengthy operation time, so he couldn't have done it with any other gun given the time period. As Nasu said it himself, it's difficult not impossible.

So basically Nasu is saying Heroic Spirits in modern era will not be the soldier but rather the powerful modern weapon carried by the solider, something along the lines of a Gunmusu then. The problem with his statement is that anyone can become an expert with a gun, but what about a legend? A U.S. Marine can accrue the same amount of combat experience as a Spetsnatz with a gun but the Spetsnatz has an advantage because the training was more advanced and the psyche was significantly hardened, the Spetsnatz is more qualified to become a Heroic Spirit because he has a better aptitude than others already skilled in gun play and can better seize the moment to become a legend should it arise. This is applicable to the distinction between a famous mercenary and a renowned knight on the field of battle. I disagree with that approach because it feels like he greatly undervalues the rare accomplishments that one can do with the seemingly overpowered(or unromantic in this case) gun when Heroic Spirits have no problems countering guns, but he's the boss so eh.

Item Creation B or B+ should work then, but I put his Golden Rule at B+ instead of A because in one of the legends he is tricked by Asmodeus and forced to travel the land as a beggar, before eventually working as a servant. He eventually got his money back, but the fact that he had that experience where he was dirt poor makes me think he should be at a B+ rather than a full A like Gilgamesh.

I understand what you're saying but this is Nasu's greatest point.
It doesn't matter who, but given time to train, anyone can become a great Spetsnaz. Now, can someone just randomly pull Excalibur from a stone in that time period? Can someone kill a mythical Hydra using nothing but one's bare hands? Can someone fight gods and defeat them using nothing but bare hands? Can someone cast high level magic near the power of True Magic without using any incantation, chants or pre-stored parana?
Also, now at the 20th and 21st century, yes we know they are good, but would we be so impressed that we would actually dedicate a temple for them or something of a great construction of wonder? Chances are no, unless you conquer the world using nothing but a mythical weapon.
Because of technology, competition and disappearance of great mysteries, achievements are lessened. Before, saving the world is such a big deal because of way too many factors. Now, save a rain forest and you are doing a fine job. Before, murder an army alone is a legendary achievement. Now, drop them a nuke or mow them with a gun.

Oh, and I also didn't say impossible. Just very difficult, especially the moment that you use guns or modern tech.

Well you already said before that it was difficult so I'll just say that comment was kind of misleading.

Some places of worship are digital in the modern age, people pay respects of varying degrees and honesty through spreading and idolizing the feats of whoever is enshrined in the archives of the internet. It's nothing compared to the effort nor sanctity put into the worship of days past but the concept of renown and preserving one's legends is there.

I don't disagree with you, the modern world makes it difficult for extravagant tales to come by unmolested because the heroics have all but faded.

I'm wondering about that policy on weapons bearing souls though, because I'm referring to Muramasa and Masamune swords rather than the smiths and the legends behind them saying that they've gained sentience from absorbing the souls of the dead.

This is what I think in regards to worship.
Population count percentage.
Imagine it as a vote count. People from the Age of Gods votes count for more because there were fewer humans before. At that time, humanity was closer to its origin and the power of Alaya was more concentrated, augmenting the weight of each human soul in comparison to modern humans. Therefore, people in the AoG worshiping you or admiring you weighs heavier compared to today.

Weapons with sentience huh. The world of mythology is full of things like that, however, they all still have one fatal flaw... they need a wielder to use them no matter how alive they are. They can talk to you, control you, absorb your soul when slain, corrupt you etc, but it would still need a wielder.
Concerning Nasuverse... well, I guess you'd have to spin a really good tale to make it viable.