Abortion

Now, I was having an argument with someone who was attempting to convince me that abortion was murder. Their argument was that abortion was taking a life regardless of any rationalization behind it. My counter-argument was that abortion was situational more than anything, through genetic, psychological, and physiological research of the parent(s) in question should dictate whether the child should be born or not.
An example for psychological/physiological I used was: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2138950/Katelynn-Sampson-seven-died-septic-shock-SEVENTY-injuries.html

An example for physiological was that of a mother who had an std which affected her nervous and/or her immune system which could have long term and potentially serious effects upon the child in question. (Woman with AIDS gives birth to child with AIDS =/= Woman with AIDS gives birth to child without AIDS, however, the disease ay still be present and the child a carrier)

An example of psychological was that of emotionally disturbed mothers or fathers who may hav a history of violence or aggression. Now, thi argument is flawed in many ways, one of the main flaws in it, however, is that of individual recocgnition of responsibility. In this I'll explain with an example in my own life.
A friend of mine, quite reckless and an excessive drug user(I mean hard drugs, really hard drugs) also with a history of aggression and anti-societal behaviour had gotten his girlfriend pregnant. During the pregnancy he had come to the realization that what he was currently, was not someone he would want his child to idolize, and upon the birth of his daughter, he had quit smoking and injecting, as well as calmed down overall into a person which was extremely respectable. He had even gotten a job and was already working to buy a house by the time his daughter was born. (So, as an argument for psychological, this was of use, but limited, as although my friend came to acknowledge his mistakes, the liklihood of another male in the same position realizin their error's would be unlikely)

On the side of genetics, I hadn't yet used a formidable argument as my genetics classes have slipped from my mind recently, however, I did use the argument that in the event that a parent had cellular degredation or genetic defects which could prevent the child from living a healthy life, the child should be aborted.

On the note of legality, my own opinion is as such

Please excuse the language, I swear for emphasis when the other party is not paying attention to specific details. (This person was poking hole in the examples rather than making their own argument)

Now, to the point of all this banter; I would like to know the personal opinions on both the legal issue of 'It is her body, so she should do what she will with it' as well as 'Child support from the man, disregarding his opinion on the matter'.

On the moral issue 'Would aborting the child prevent him or her from enduring inhumane and unnatural stress? Or would it be pacifying a man without his or her consent?'

Also, the possibility that each child's situation is unique and should be looked as as a new or first case, rather than assuming a generalization and labeling them all 'condemned' and walking away from the issue.

Any personal experiences with the matter at hand would be interesting to hear about, so as to either confirm my own theories on the matter, or to have myself or other alter their own theories and opinions on the matter.


->Apology to admins: If the subject of abortion has already come up, I must admit I could not find it, and I went through quite a few pages<-

This video is funny, but also very true.


Ok here is my own answer to your thread.

I am personally against abortion, but what I hate about it is that if women didn't wish to get pregnant then they shouldn't have fucked in the first place or should have worn a condom during sexual intercourse. ( My personal opinion, sounds hard but bear with me )

But what I wish to say as a Fakku member, is that for some cases it should be an exception to abort a child if the following happens:

Rape
Forced pregnancy
The fetus/baby is no longer alive
( That is basically my reasons to have an abortion )

All other reasons are irrelevant to me because anything that has nothing to do with rape or forced pregnancy is a women who had sex on her own free will.

So yeah abortion should be allowed, but only on a certain case.

I don't care if someone gets an abortion, as long as you don't make me pay for it in tax money. I'll keep my opinion to myself.

Though in the case of rape, it's pretty silly and expensive to get an abortion. Rather, you should rush to the hospital as fast as you can, and simply get an estrogen shot to "abort" it before it forms into anything. It's really silly to wait a long time after rape to do something about it. Not condemning abortion here, but there are alternatives, such as estrogen shots.

Ask your friend if he'd save 5 fertilized, preserved zygotes from a burning building before saving a 5 year old girl.

I'll bet I know the answer.

I don't think of abortion as murder, and i don't think a woman would make a decision like that lightly like some people think. They have it when they feel there is no other option. Women still got abortions when it was illegal, so its not like this is something that started happening just now. Abortion is never pretty, but I feel the only way to reduce the rate of abortion is to make contraception more widely available, and perhaps make adoption more attractive option.

Unfortunately from what i've seen most opponents of abortion include contraception in that category, and so try to make that harder to get.

In the current state of things, with many countries having many different regulations concerning abortion, I would cocnord with your suggestion that abortion is situational, bound only by the law of cause and effect.

Examples:
An irresponsible girl, having unprotected sex with her boyfriend, is now pregnant. If there are no clinical reasons, such as health problems, to validate the abortion, there should be none made, as it is her responsability, as well as her boyfriend's, to make sure that if they do not desire a child, they do not get one.
The financial reasons and marital reasons, such "consequences" that are caused by the arrival of a child, should not influence the event of an abortion.

Basically, you don't kill the fetus if you've got money problems, but you do if it causes risks for your own safety, all of this in the case of course of unvolontary pregnancy.

In the case of a rape, again, abortion can be suggested as a solution for the woman, if she desires it, because she did not wish for the child and it was "forced" upon her.

These are just my two pence, but again, abortion is killing a living being, unborn sure, but still living.

My opinion is, be practical, don't kill if there is no intresec reason to, meaning if your thinking to have an abortion because you don't want to marry, think again dud, you should have used that rubber.

A woman's body is hers and hers alone. Regardless of whether we feel abortion is right, she should have control over her body. Nobody else has the right to tell her what she can and can't do with it.

This aside, a woman who wants to get an abortion will get an abortion, regardless of its legality. The only difference is that she will get it done illegally, in an unsanitary environment, by some creep who has no idea what he's doing.

Abortion isn't a bad or good thing, but in most cases its necessary. Its not like women are doing it because they aren't in the mood to raise a child. Even if that was the case, who am I to judge? Its their body and the fetus isn't fully developed so its not murder.

I think it should remain legal, but if it were me personally, it would be a situational sort of thing. Having abortions available doesn't mean that everyone is going to have irresponsible sex. If anything, there are too many examples of families today that are the result of said irresponsible sex. I know quite a few people who had gotten knocked up early on in high school, and almost all of them tend to treat their child as if it were some kind of pet: they'll take care of the child as long as they feel like it. To me, that's wrong on plenty of levels.

In terms of people who are concerned with the idea that abortion is essentially murder, I am someone who believes that a fetus is still just a bunch of cells until about the third trimester. But I would also like to summarize the quote of a priest who happens to be both pro-life and pro-choice: People will hoot and holler about how wrong it is to kill an unborn child, but much of the time, they tend to neglect that the woman in question is already a living, breathing person. Many of those who demonize women for their choice tend to forget that small detail. And people are desperate creatures; it's been that way for centuries. In the past, when abortions weren't legal, women would further endanger their lives by getting illegal abortions done by people who don't even practice medicine, and that's out of desperation. Much of the time, these safe practices will result in a woman's death (see the old play "Spring Awakening" to put it into depressing storybook terms). In this case, it's not an issue of "save one life"; it's an issue of saving two lives versus one.

I would also like to add that in some cases, Doctors/Next of Kin/the mother must decide between the mother's life or the baby's. I am ignorant of what specific events cause this to happen, but I do know that it can happen. Childbirth is a big stress, compromised systems can sometimes not withstand it.

All abortion is morally permissible, because nobody has any right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body.

And that's the end of the thread.

But you kill a life D: HEUHEUHEUHEU

There's two sides
1: It's murder. You can not sanction murder just because someone got raped or doesn't have lots of money. People who say this sort of thing should switch sides. Or they are just a tad twisted.
2: It's not murder. Everybody wins.

The topic of abortion is the same as the topic of gay rights, its like beating a dead horse, its going to get nowhere because every time one side "wins" the other just brings the topic up again. I'm personally against gay marriage, so I said alright, Prop 8 is passed, end of story, months later a campaign starts for the repeal of it, and now its been declared unconstitutional. So much for that huh?

Anyway, on to my view. Abortion is not murder, the woman who aborts her baby is not a murderer, and the public opinion of that lady should not be one of a murderer. Oh so abortion gets rid of a potential human life...so what? Abortion does so much good, yet some choose to look upon it as a heinous crime. Abortion comes about very, very often because of unwanted pregnancy from rape or because there are people who practice unsafe sex without thinking the consequences can harm them. The rape situation is obviously a good thing, and those who believe abortion is murder, please don't qualify by saying "oh maybe in this situation..." way too much regulation on something that could be so simple. The other situation also is a good thing, because it teaches those practitioners a lesson, if I were a girl and I was...unsafe in my sexual activity, and got knocked up and got an abortion, I would be more wary, abortion costs money, some time, and the fact that "oh I killed my baby, boohoo", its a much better lesson than NOT allowing her to have an abortion and having that woman live with this baby and mistake for the rest of her life with very little chance of being able to move on, in fact, if the woman is crazy enough she'll just kill the baby after it's born, now that is MURDER.

I don't even believe in small government, and I still say this a place the government should let go of, not that my opinion will ever reach the halls of Congress.

Don't care. Her body her rules.

If I hooked you up to someone and said if you don't stay hooked up for 9 months they'll die, it's morally permissible for you to disconnect and say, "Fuck this I'm out."

So...yeah. :)

Um, it sounds like you don't actually know what abortion even entails, in most cases. Unless it's extremely late term, it's not life.

How can people not consider a fetus a "life", when if a pregnant woman is murdered, it's a double murder. Idk man. I feel that it shouldn't be as worrisome legally as it is morally.

Ok, look, I have to say this. It's a choice people. A very important one at that. Therefor, wnat right does anyone have to tell you that you can't chose what you want. You see, this whole abortion debate is because of emotional and moral reasons, but people who are trying to make this illegal are selfish. Your banning someones important choice because you believe it's wrong. If you think it's wrong don't get one. If you think it's right get one. If you want to argue about morals I won't stop you, but if you use those morals to ban something for someone who has different morals your just selfish.

Well that's all I have to... Well actually can say. maybe when I have more time I'll edit this. Bye for now.

I think the arguments of Women's body rights is questionable. It's always the present day terms that seem to follow with this argument " The fetus is not technically alive, so it's alright to eliminate." to which I reply "Well, if you left it alone, would it eventually be alive?"

A lot of cases of abortion involve a healthy fetus that have a good chance of being born. The reasons behind killing a fetus is of no concern of mine. It is the fact that you terminated something before it would naturally die by itself. Though this tricky since the said can used with me using a condom and thus preventing my sperm from fertilizing, thus preventing life all together.

I argue that with something that is already in the process of becoming a citizen of reality, killing it prematurely is not alright. It is, however, my own ethical code for this decision and is thus invalid to any of society's idea over abortion.

Even though I oppose the idea of abortion, restricting it will make matters worse. There will always be people with ethics that will get a clothes hangar and do it anyway. This method is dangerous and can result too many complications, including death. Banning abortions just results in more damage to human beings than just allowing it.

To sum it up, abortion is the destruction of life or the the potential to be life. I oppose the idea of abortions, but I do not have control over others and thus believe abortion ethics is left to communities and individuals to rely on. Therefore, I believe abortion should remain legal or illegal depending how the majority of society believes it should be.