Is obama really a good Pres? US topic

You have yet to show that you understand libertarians. Hostility and disregarding people aren't qualities of libertarian values but of certain people. There are people of all political backgrounds that are hostile and disregard people. I haven't once called you stupid or disregarded you, since there has yet to be any sort of evidence or proof to be disregarded.

To be honest you are doing exactly what you claim libertarians do. You are disregarding our claims without providing anything to back up your own claims. If you knew anything about libertarians at all then you would know that one of the most important aspects about being a libertarian is the value we put in being able to have your own opinions and beliefs.

[color=#2e1a6b]If you want to stop a discussion, you have to stop responding regardless of how easy/tempting it is.

carry on if you must, but there's not much help for guys like him

True. If I do respond and it doesn't help it is merely time wasted if nothing else.

As for the topic on hand, Obama is not a good president for many reasons and one of them is that he is out of touch with the public. He is a great speaker and that is a big reason as to why he is president. Romney is a lot like him in that they both can say a whole lot of nothing. It is almost impressive as to how much these two men can speak without actually saying anything at all. On top of that Obama is really good at making promises and talking his way out when he doesn't follow through with them.

"I don't believe the evidence", You, sir, should never be on a Jury of your peers. Even if you don't "believe" the evidence you are OBLIGATED as an American Citizen to look over the evidence. You've failed your obligation. Even if a man is tried for murder and it's obvious he didn't do it, if I were on a jury of a said trial, I still owe it to due process to examine the prosecutor's case.

Interestingly, you point out that you want "proof" that he didn't come from this country(Hell, this is a non-point. Obama was born to a British Subject, he's not a National Born Citizen whether he was born here or freaking Mars.) But, supposing it were a point to contend with, I have a few things I'd like to share with you, that you probably "believe" is some Republican conspiracy.

For starters, Obama's Social Security Number? It's not his, and it's from a state(Connecticut)whose records show he never once actually lived there. http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/obamas-social-security-number-challenged/

The president that seemingly has nothing to hide, and promised transparency the first thing he did was seal about every record that could ever pertain to the man: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2009-01-26/pdf/E9-1712.pdf

This is a man who has violated our most sacred trust, has brought us into wars that the American Public never voted for(Libya, Syria) to which the full implications of an Iranian-Russian-Chinese front will soon find missiles and bombs on U.S. Territory. Maybe then, and ONLY then you will find the courage to fulfill your responsibilties.

Of course, after the tremors of calamity are over I fully expect the likes of such people to put their head back in the sand.

When you want to take down a structure, you should always go for its base.

Before you get into details about Obama not being an American citizen, let's look at the roots of it, his birth certificate.

On his birth certificate, the two factors that are used to claim it is fake are:
-In 1961, blacks were referred to as "Negroes" not African-Americans
-At the time he was born, his father's country was known as the British East Africa Protectorate, because Kenya did not yet exist.

On Obama's birth certificate it says his father's race was African, not African-American, as that was what indeginous Africans were called, and the British East Africa Protectorate, was also known as the colony of Kenya, also news papers at the time referred to the area as Kenya, not the BEAP.

Also in this youtube video, the narrator debunks many rumors about the Birth Certificate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc3b8xVJStU&lc=IF_MDKtCqYnClrbclc-V1uLJ5VCuA8A3lCy3NuInhJI&feature=inbox

If you noticed, in the comments I posted a comment regarding how his mother couldn't have possibly left the country within the window of his birth, wich was replied to by the Author of the video who links to an article he wrote concerning Obama's mother.

I'm not saying is Obama is a good president, or a bad president, but a legitimate conversation cannot be had if lies fog up the actual facts of the conversation.

Who knows the details of this man's birth, just as we don't know how he's obtained an Indonesian Passport, and has traveled to places such as Pakistan at a time of civil war practically engulfing the entire Middle East just as it is today.

I find it so ironic, when one side chooses a "side" of a debate, takes this as the "truth" and then labels all else as "lies". I most certainly won't proclaim that A: I hold a position or that B: It's truthful.

I'll state this: A man that seals his own records, has a dual-citizenship, can virtually declare war "without having to get to the constitutional question", is not only a liar but has literally declared himself dictator of the American People. I wouldn't put it past this guy to commit any crime really.

The reason he has an Indonesian passport is because his step-father (A Javanese man) moved his family out to that region.
Also FactCheck has done an article concerning the trip to Pakistan.

Also, none of the sources I could find we're very clear on the topic of the passport, they were all very ambiguous, so it's unclear if he has dual-citizenship, or not.

Interesting, if true, why would these "birthers" lie about the travel ban, or rather lack thereof one? My point earlier still stands, I don't know the truth nor does anyone else. In fact, being a little bit philosophical, the truth always stands out sooner rather than later. But neither I, nor yourself, nor anyone else honestly knows that truth. Only the president himself and his relatives and so one might call this argument moot.

Oh good. A bunch of posts claiming Obama's birth certificate is a forgery and other arguments that nobody important and well educated takes seriously anymore.

I went ahead and clicked "Don't care about politics" As to my reason? See this thread.



I can't believe you're actually a birther Lelouch. I thought you had gained some critical thinking capabilities.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/kenyacert.asp

I mean seriously.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp

This has gone to court many times, and every time the courts find the evidence in favor of this proposition quite dubious. It's gotten to the point that nobody can even get this to court because no court will waste their time on this nonsense.

http://www.politifact.com/subjects/obama-birth-certificate/

Fact check your shit dude. Seriously. Some arizona sheriff says it's a forgery and you just believe him? Based on what? Because he's a sheriff? who gives a shit? Argument from authority much?

Bill O Reilly has every single reason to say he thinks it's a forgery, but even he says it's not.

He even mocked Trump for this shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQFbVWHnzp0

But seriously, what do you need to see to convince you, that you would reasonably ask of ANY other presidential candidate? I don't see you going around challenging every single president's birth certificates and saying, "Unless I see it, you were born in Europe." or something stupid like that. Because this is retarded. It's a dumb issue, nobody educated on the subject aside from a few crazies that have failed to prove their case in court believe this shit. But for some reason you guys just stick to this idea.

As far as your other links, I already had an argument with FPOD in the thread you copy pasted that quote from as to why I find all of those to be shit arguments against Obama, and I don't feel like getting into them again. But.

Let's for a moment, presume you're right about Obama's birth certificate being a forgery.

What level of conspiracy does that require?

About 50 years, prior to black people even having civil rights in the country, of taking some guy from Kenya and saying, "Have a baby with this woman, and we'll convince the american people he's american born. We'll forge several documents to make it seem like he's legitimate and make sure he becomes president."

That's what would be required in order to make this claim of yours true. Do you think the Republicans and George Bush's secret service and the FBI and the CIA just never looked into this shit? Or hell, is the conspiracy so unrealistically huge that they're actually behind it? That it took the keen eye of a few people who aren't even experts on how to track this information down to figure out a half a century conspiracy of all government officials slowly grooming one african american man to become president?

Do you understand the insane levels of logic you need to leap through in order to reach your conclusion? Because I don't know if you know this Lelouch, but when you make a claim? When ANYONE makes a claim about reality? It comes with testable propositions, and makes predictions about how this claim could be true. So what is the level of conspiracy required to convince the majority of information sights to keep debunking this shit, to convince everyone Obama ever knew to agree he's an american citizen, people he went to school with, people in his family, his wife, was his WIFE a part of this conspiracy too? What is the level? What monumental levels of Mt. Improbable do you intend to climb to see this claim through?

As far as Michelle saying Kenya was Obama's home country, let me explain this to you. Obama, after he was born in hawaii, was taken to Africa to visit his father's homeland. He grew up there until he was about 7 years old. Some people have claimed that Kenya didn't offer dual citizenship at the time, but the thing is, at that time, Kenya didn't require citizenship for those under the age of 18. So by 'home country' she means the place he was taken to to be raised for a few years during his childhood. Problem? No. Obama's american, get over it and debate issues that actually matter. Read his autobiography. Jesus.

Until you drop this nonsense Lelouch, I'm placing you in the category of people who think Obama's a reptilian. Have a nice day.

[color=#2e1a6b]I decided to give you a second chance. I'll pretend that I never read your post, and you can start over without looking like a fucking douche. You can even delete that post if you want (and I'll delete this section of this post).

It is painfully obvious that you didn't look at ANY of the evidence I posted. I understand that you would not want to watch a video over an hour long, but if you're gonna shit on me for it, you gotta look at the evidence I referenced.

I'm actually gonna help you out with this: Here are the specific parts of the video that you must watch before attempting to respond to my position:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Ngv16UQAA#t=7m60s to 10:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Ngv16UQAA#t=16m31s to 19:13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Ngv16UQAA#t=21m14s to 24:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Ngv16UQAA#t=35m9s to 35:46

(I find the 3rd link to be most interesting)

Did you read any of my links? Because I already told you I know of the video, I know of the sheriff, Arizona Sheriffs are notoriously racist, so there's an inherent bias in the man's evaluation, and this exact same 'evidence' has been attempted to be used in court, and systematically failed. I would rather you respond to the content of my post, instead of restate your opinion as if I simply couldn't have read it and investigated it, and understood it, and then disagreed with your conclusion rationally.

I don't care if you find that video interesting. It's not evidence.

I recommend the third link I provided, Politifact. They fact check this bullshit all the time.

Also, concerning this bullshit, there was a response by Joshua A Wisch, assistant to the Hawaii Attorny General stated, in response to this nonsense, "President Obama was born in Honolulu, and his birth certificate is valid."

Wisch also said that “not only are Hawaii’s vital records some of the best managed, but they also have some of the strongest restrictions on access to prevent identity theft and fraud.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78645.html#ixzz22AbDc0b5

So...he's just part of the conspiracy you're saying?

Bill O Reilly's part of the conspiracy?

Where does it end?

Here's another one for you.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jul/01/obamas-birth-certificate-final-chapter-time-we-mea/

And another one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories#Not_born_in_Hawaii

"In 1961, birth notices for Barack Obama were published in both the Honolulu Advertiser and the Honolulu Star-Bulletin on August 13 and August 14, 1961, respectively, listing the home address of Obama's parents as 6085 Kalanianaole Highway in Honolulu.[7][13] On November 9, 2008, in response to the persistent rumors, the Advertiser posted on its web site a screenshot of the announcement taken from its microfilmed archives. Such notices were sent to newspapers routinely by the Hawaii Department of Health.[13]"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-07-18/arizona-sheriff-obama-birth/56296272/1

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/hawaii-weve-officially-verified-obamas-birth-certificate-for-az-sec-of-state/

How much evidence do you need Lelouch? Just let me know when I can stop shoving these down your throat.

[color=#2e1a6b]yeah... and they had nothing to with the defending the released birth certificate. Instead, they were responding to other accusations that I was not making.


[color=#2e1a6b]ooh, Ad hominem *clap *clap

So, instead of going over the evidence in each section of the video (each link is right there), you decide disregard it on the basis of Ad Hominum. Fantastic.

How about you actually address this evidence.


[color=#2e1a6b]What? The investigators just discovered this evidence a few months ago. There hasn't been a court ruling that this evidence is insufficient (at least that I'm aware of).


[color=#2e1a6b]What do you mean? Your post was irrelevent links, followed by you saying "Some arizona sheriff says it's a forgery and you just believe him?"[color=#2e1a6b], followed by a straw man argument.

There wasn't much to respond to, so I figured it'd be best to start fresh.



[color=#2e1a6b]I looked through the list of articles, but none of them disproved the claim that the birth certificate was a forgery.



[color=#2e1a6b]How the fuck does this prove that it's valid?



[color=#2e1a6b]I'm am really sick of hearing people basically make the argument "I can disprove your claim by calling it a conspiracy theory". Even your best friend hates this argument

You know what Lelouch? Sit back and relax. Because I'm going to make a video for you, and post it in this post as an edit. Because clearly you have a hard time reading, as none of your critiques of my position are even valid, I didn't say things you think I say and you even quote me not saying them while accusing me of saying it, so just sit tight while I fire up the camera an explain, in great detail, why you can take your sheriffs, and shove them up your ass, Obama's a U./S. Citizen, and the more you argue about this, the dumber you inevitably will look.

[color=#2e1a6b]Youtube comments are so messy :/

You labeled me as a birther, and posted tons of evidence against claims that birthers make, even though I never made those claims. I hadn't even heard of the word "Birther", until you used it to describe me. I realize now that this is causing confusion. You attribute birthers to be making claims such as "his mother was too young" or "we have his kenyan birth certificate". If these claims are attributed to "birthers", then I'm not a birther. When you say that "I posted tons of evidence against you", you are only saying that you posted tons of evidence against birthers (a label I don't attribute myself to). I only made one claim, and you haven't posted evidence that disproves the only claim I made:

The birth certificate released by Obama is a forgery. Because of this, he is not eligible for president.

If you think you already did provide evidence, then just copy-paste the links straight here.

And about Ad Hominem: this from the wiki page that you laughed at me for linking to

Ok, 3 things.

1. You are a 'birther' because a 'birther' is anyone who believes Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States, which you've said is the fact of the matter. Other people agree with you, for a number of different reasons. So I covered my bases on all the different Birther claims, while at the same time establishing a systematic failure on the side of people who make the same claim as you utterly failing to provide anything of any consideration.

2. The only evidence I need is Wisch, as I stated earlier, declaring the Sheriff's police department as a bunch of liars(which is consistent with their history and other evidence, one of which hwas a youtube video I linked to you in the comments section of youtube)and that the people responsible for monitoring this shit have verified that Obama's birth certificate is valid.

That's all I need.

3. Please read your own source. "This is fallacious because a disposition to make a certain argument does not make the argument false;" which I never said. So again, your accusation of ad hom is invalid.

What I instead pointed out was simply that if someone is known for being racist and bias against people they perceive to be illegal immigrants, then their investigations of the birth certificate of a black man and declaring it to be fraudulent are suspect. And I am in no way required, nor is anyone else, to consider their 'investigation' seriously until further evidence presents itself. They're not necessarily WRONG, I never said they were, I said that they haven't provided near enough evidence. Also, I really love how every single post you make keep ignoring when I point out that if you accept Obama is not a U.S. president, you must accept a vast number of other things about reality you have no evidence for. You refuse to address this issue, and it's really very entertaining how much you dodge the issue.

BigLundi wrote...

Lelouch24 wrote...

[color=#2e1a6b]Youtube comments are so messy :/

You labeled me as a birther, and posted tons of evidence against claims that birthers make, even though I never made those claims. I hadn't even heard of the word "Birther", until you used it to describe me. I realize now that this is causing confusion. You attribute birthers to be making claims such as "his mother was too young" or "we have his kenyan birth certificate". If these claims are attributed to "birthers", then I'm not a birther. When you say that "I posted tons of evidence against you", you are only saying that you posted tons of evidence against birthers (a label I don't attribute myself to). I only made one claim, and you haven't posted evidence that disproves the only claim I made:

The birth certificate released by Obama is a forgery. Because of this, he is not eligible for president.


And about Ad Hominem: this from the wiki page that you laughed at me for linking to

Ad hominem circumstantial points out that someone is in circumstances such that he is disposed to take a particular position. Ad hominem circumstantial constitutes an attack on the bias of a source. This is fallacious because a disposition to make a certain argument does not make the argument false; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy (an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source).

Ok, 3 things.

1. You are a 'birther' because a 'birther' is anyone who believes Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States, which you've said is the fact of the matter.

[color=#2e1a6b]I never claimed he wasn't a natural born citizen. I claimed he was an ineligible president because he released a fraudulent birth certificate. The most likely reason for this is because he is not a natural born citizen, however, I am open to other reasons as to why he released a forged certificate.

2. The only evidence I need is Wisch, as I stated earlier, declaring the Sheriff's police department as a bunch of liars(which is consistent with their history and other evidence, one of which hwas a youtube video I linked to you in the comments section of youtube)and that the people responsible for monitoring this shit have verified that Obama's birth certificate is valid.

[color=#2e1a6b]I don't see why Wisch has any more authority to call him a liar than you do. It's still Ad Hominem

And how did they verify that it was valid? source?

3. Please read your own source. "This is fallacious because a disposition to make a certain argument does not make the argument false;" which I never said. So again, your accusation of ad hom is invalid.

What I instead pointed out was simply that if someone is known for being racist and bias against people they perceive to be illegal immigrants, then their investigations of the birth certificate of a black man and declaring it to be fraudulent are suspect.

[color=#2e1a6b]So, why is the sheriff's argument false? is it because he is "known for being racist and bias against people they perceive to be illegal immigrants"?

If the answer is yes, then that is exactly what an Ad Hominem is

And I am in no way required, nor is anyone else, to consider their 'investigation' seriously until further evidence presents itself. They're not necessarily WRONG, I never said they were, I said that they haven't provided near enough evidence. Also, I really love how every single post you make keep ignoring when I point out that if you accept Obama is not a U.S. president, you must accept a vast number of other things about reality you have no evidence for. You refuse to address this issue, and it's really very entertaining how much you dodge the issue.

[color=#2e1a6b]Not much conspiracy is required. You already admitted that no one cares or takes it seriously. All that would have to happen is Obama to forge a birth certificate, and to have any challenge against it dismissed. They'd have to hide evidence that would prove whether or not it was valid, such as the Kapiolani medical center's logbook, or an unaltered scan.

[color=#2e1a6b]EDIT:
This is really a waste of time for both of us. It's not gonna get a court hearing, and even if does and he's ineligible, Obama's clone Romney will get into office. we're both wasting too much time debating about such a mundane issue

I have a question , since you debated so hard on this , it must be important ? So what does that change if he is or not american ?