Israeli/Palestinian conflict

I say that's the power of mass media, if someone actually said the pen is mightier than sword I believe it, and yeah in Indonesia EVERY breaking news just told about the war and how Israel bamboozles the Palestine, and people in my country all yell Israel is evil and must die, my friend who works in McD is afraid that he'll be raid by mass

It's sure a mess, Both sides suffers a huge loss of people, and I begin to think both sides are could't be trusted as they were innocent

The war, and I mean EVERY war that broke loose in this world is just a show of epic nonsense drama about human's greed. People seems to keep the war in the world so they can sell their guns to the both sides in the war, it's all seems like business now. The philosophy of the color of this world is not white and black but grey is seems make sense to me now

and about UN, where they are when the world needed them most? I see they just act like spectator in every war now, and to think I look up at UN long time ago as the one who can organize the world mess it's sad...

I seems to babbling nonsense now...but this is what I'm thinking now

Because there's the USA with it's Veto right, to denote any proposal that the UN has made, even if the whole world made a proposal for Israel to stop the war, USA can just abuse it's Veto right and continue the war.

After that, the only problem is the Hamas, will they stop bombarding Israel or not?

I was referring to sympathy to Israeli's killed by suicide bombs, rocket attacks and various other attacks since at least the 1990's. If you factored those numbers into the equation. The current conflict looks like a sucker punch. The Israeli people have tried to live in peace but, every day a bomb went off on a bus, in a market or even a school. Due to the actions of the Palestinian people since at least the Clinton Administration attempting to negotiate peace back when Yasser Arafat was the head of the Fatah party. All the terrorist acts of the Fatah party and Hamas over the years have drained away my sympathy for the Palestinians since they have repeatedly elected anti-Semitic groups as their "Representatives". It's only in recent years has Israel really fought with the Palestinians on such a scale. The more the Palestinians keep fighting and attacking Israel the longer this will drag out and the more "innocent" will get involved.

The number of people killed by those rockets (and mortar attacks) since 2000 (again I'm talking about the larger picture)



The repeated attacks on Israeli soil is the point here. How would you like to live in a country where you risk getting killed by a rocket or a mortar shell every minute of every day? Israel has stated that the offensive will end when the rockets stop. Hamas refuses to stop the rockets and has publicly stated that they will never agree to another ceasefire or a peace agreement. If Hamas and their Palestinian supporters continue this much longer my stance will go from "punish the misbehaving child" to "Level the area to dust".

Hamas (Palestine) WILL stop, it WILL live peacefully beside Israel or it WILL be crushed. Blame Hamas for the conflict not Israel.

tl;fr: The conflict won't end because Hamas won't stop since all Hamas has to do is stop firing those damned rockets into Israeli territory. Israel has tried negotiations in the past. Hamas refuses to follow U.N. resolutions and ceasefire agreements. If Hamas doesn't want peace then they can prepare for war.

In my opinion, both sides must have to return to the diplomatical conversations, cuzz at the end of the day the people, of both sides is sufferin and those civilians dont have to pay for the entire conflict.

I agree, Israel has all the reasons to attack, in order to protect his people, but before they must think in the other people.

Of course, thats my opinion, i am not with any of the both sides, i just think that every war no matter why, always they are all absurd.
And i say as a soldier like i am, anyway thats me, no intention to insult or offend ok? i am neutral as my country is.

Honestly at all the people supporting ceasefire with hamas, I won't be glad if I was in israel, I'd want to return fire. Espically how would you like it if they blew up your local anime shop.

I have to say I was pretty amazed when Israel shelled that UN run hospital with mortar fire. Very bold, though perhaps not seeming quite as bold when one considers that they have had years of the US sending them weapons and aid and asking for pretty much zero accountability in both combat and the farce that has been referred to as the middle east peace process.

The whole point of Israel, or most nations, in combating terrorism in failed states is that terrorists are willing to kill civilians to meet their goals. This seems like a good justification. If the Palestinian government can't protect Israel from its own militants, then Israel has some justification to go combat these people. This is similar to the invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11 by the US.

However, Israel has managed to kill far more civilians then HAMAS, Hezbollah, and whomever else. They've destroyed schools, library, civilian housing, Mosques. They have assassinated some political leaders with impunity and generally brandish their superior armaments frequently and loudly.

This is wrong/a bad idea for three reasons:

1) The Israelis undermine their own justification for military action. If they are going to engage in the same types of acts as the terrorist groups by killing civilians indiscriminately, then they fit their own definition of terrorists. Israel claims it is attempting to minimize civilian casualties, but numbers just don't back it up. If the Israelis are also acting like terrorists, then HAMAS has the same justification to fight them, and you get nowhere.

2) "Punishing" a nation for war damages carried out by that nation or groups within that nation has never worked. It didn't work in WWI. It didn't work in Iraq. It's not going to work here. It motivates potential terrorists, generates ill will in the world community, and so forth. Honestly, Israel could raze every other country in the middle east and there would still be people out there firing rockets at them. All they would have done is kill millions of civilians, destroy monuments of history and learning, and make a lot more people hate them. Counter-terrorism isn't about HOW MANY terrorists you kill. Ultimately, it has to be about finding terrorist motives and removing them from play. While the HAMAS charter might declare eternal Jihad on Israel, there are plenty of actors within the group that are there because they can't find any jobs, or because their house was destroyed. If you can take these people away from HAMAS, HAMAS becomes significantly less powerful.

3) HAMAS and Hezbollah don't have control over their own subordinates. Even with a cease fire, some extremist nutjob is going to fire a rocket at Israel from time to time. If Israel responds every time with an invasion, then any peace process is useless. Israel would have to be willing to talk to HAMAS before invading when a rocket hit, and HAMAS would have to be willing to attempt to police its own people and agree to help Israel investigate the attacks and put an end to them. Neither of these things seem likely to happen.

So Whitelion you are saying to remove the reasons for people to support Hamas? How would you suggest they go about that? Open up the boarders to allow Palestinians to freely move about? Give them money, food and other aid so their country isn't as much of a shit hole? try to counter their indoctrination of their children to kill Israelis? OR how about we just evict the Israeli people since the Palestinians "want their land back"

Sorry, I don't see that working.

1). Allowing the Palestinians to move freely means allowing their terrorist to walk freely in Israel which means the bus and market bombings will just start up again instead of the random rock and mortar fire.

2). Giving the Palestinians money, food and aid will just end up in the hand of their Government (A.k.a. Hamas). I can see all sorts of problem even with U.N. peacekeeping forces delivering the aid.

3). We are talking about children who are indoctrinated worse than the Hitler youth. Children growing up thinking GOD tells them that the Israeli people are murderous dogs. We all know how bad Evangelical Christians are and these fanatical Muslims are out of their league. Like comparing little league to the New York Yankees. At least the Hitler youth didn't fight beyond a "hopeless" situation. We are talking about people who are so fanatical they will into a hail of .50 bullets to blow themselves up.

Not to mention the fact that they celebrate people who martyr themselves practically as national hero's.

I don't know much about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, so I haven't said anything in this thread. But I have occasionally looked, and this stood out to me. It seems like it deserves its own thread, but I'm a lazy, lazy man (at least, right now).

How does one say that this sort of invasion plan is bad without sounding xenophobic or racist? I'll be completely honest; this "peaceful" plan disturbs me greatly. I don't mind people of different elasticities living in my town, but I wouldn't be happy if 60% of my neighborhood suddenly turned into one single ethnicity. I don't think white people should rule the world or be the vast majority in any area, but I don't think any single ethnicity should, whether they're Asian, English, or Middle-Eastern. If there's a political or religious agenda, that makes it even worse.

But how do you fight something like this? America's having problems with people coming up from Latin America, but the problem mainly involves legality and people not speaking English. If everyone came in legally and spoke English, the problem wouldn't be as big. But the Hispanics and Latinos also aren't trying to change the American society.

It just feels fucked up, to know that this sort of thing can happen.

Just in case you want to know more here is the link to the article by Anis Shorrosh (it's on some guys site but, it's still taken from his article)

http://www.sullivan-county.com/immigration/rob_nothink.htm

The wiki of Fouad Hussein about his book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fouad_Hussein

If you'd like me to post more I can. The reason I brought it up is that the whole Palestinian/Israeli conflict is intertwined with fanatical Muslims. The more you read into it the more it looks like Muslims are bad people. I know there are good people like mnx around but, it seems like he's in the minority in the community. Looking at the number of Islamic terrorist groups worldwide begins to make you think about it.

If you do more research on the practices of HAMAS, you will find that indoctrination may not play as big a role as you claim. Sure, they try, but they also offer payment to their soldiers, especially suicide bombers, whose families receive pretty significant chunks of money and support. If you are starving and living in a hellish warzone, you might decide that it is worth it to become a terrorist for the money, even if you are apathetic to the cause. Maybe you die, but then your family might be able to survive and get a better life.

If HAMAS's indoctrination program is as powerful as you say, then they shouldn't need to spend money recruiting and paying their terrorists. Every child should be jumping for joy at the thought of blowing up infidels, and HAMAS should be spending the money on more weapons or something. Clearly, HAMAS realizes that these economic incentives are necessary to get the number of pawns and foot soldiers they need. This is an area where HAMAS is vulnerable, and successfully attacking this weakness would be more effective than years of Israeli offensives.

You are absolutely right that simply throwing large amounts of money or consumable supplies directly at local or national governments is a waste, because of corruption and the government being run by either terrorists or groups that find it in their interest for terrorist activity to continue. How then does one attack this vulnerability successfully? Invest in infrastructure, schools, hospitals, affordable housing, and so forth in Palestine. This both creates benefits useful to the populace that HAMAS cannot easily or usefully commandeer, and has the potential to create employment for the population. What can HAMAS do? Blow up the roads, hospitals, and houses built for their own populace? It puts them in a difficult spot. If they do nothing, then the peoples' lives are bettered and the economic incentives to become terrorists are less appealing. If they destroy the improvements, then they will hurt their local support. I know I wouldn't support a group of self proclaimed "freedom fighters" if they had blown up my local hospital. The best they can do is try to kill the aid workers to intimidate the countries supplying aid to pull out, which is what Al-Qaeda has been doing in Iraq.

So, my strategy for Israel would be to use its military forces sparingly, with precision, defensively, and more patiently while working with the UN to improve infrastructure and services as explained above. It's a long term strategy that requires patience, and doesn't satiate the immediate thirst by some for retributive justice. But unlike years of terrorism and counter-terrorism, I think it could actually yield results.

Fiery, I explained by proposal to you, so I am interested to hear how you think Israel and the UN/NATO/the West should proceed. I stated in my previous post the reasons which make me think that simply crushing Palestine militarily would not be effective(short of a theocide/genocide scenario involving killing basically everyone outside Israel in the middle east that will never happen). Do you think otherwise? If not, what should be done?

I don't really side with any of them. I say just let them fight it out and waste more lives and money until both sides realize the idiocy in what they are doing. But at the same time I don't really want them to end their mindless conflict, because then it would be so boring to have another 2 countries be in peace and live in coexistence with eachother. I mean humanity lives to cause conflict with eachother, it's just our innate nature take up rash actions without really realizing it. So just let them continue on, and if they do stop fighting some day, then there will probably be another conflict starting else where.

Fuck those Israeli jews.

Israel.

Why do some of you people rooting for Israel? They killed more than 800 Palestinian a day, mostly WOMAN and CHILDREN. They captured anyone they want, for ''they-are-terrorist'' excuse. Which one is terrorist, the one whom invade or the one who invaded?

Israel was the race that slaughtered about 2 millions during the WWII by Nazi, and since then they were none more than refugees whom lost they own country. Then, they came to other people country(Palestine), killed and chased out the people there and claiming that place as their ''Holy Land''.

How can you believe in media today when all of them are controlled by Israel? Of course they tried to make us believe that these Israel-Palestine conflict were all on Palestinian's fault.

If your land, the place that suppose to be your home was taken by a some begger, and the police who saw that pretend nothing happen, and your neighbours give nothing but some sympathy look, how do you feel. We'll never understand that feeling unless we're in their shoes.

I root for Palestine. And stop calling Palestinian who stood up and protect their land from Israel regime as ''Terrorist''. That's an insult.

You have an interesting position. I was aware of the monetary "persuasions" that Hamas has used in the past but, I thought of it as a minor detail and that the indoctrination was the main cause. The whole "Zionism/invasion of the west" etc etc (you get the idea) was programming the youth to volunteer for suicide bombings.

One area I think is a concern is even with investing in the infrastructure I think Hamas will proclaim the tired old argument of "Zionism,etc,etc" as "they are trying to invade Palestine" kind of mentality thus in the eyes of the Palestinian people would justify the destruction of hospitals and other infrastructure that Israel and the rest of the world are trying to give the people. We ARE talking about a group that won it's elections based on the promise to wipe Israel off the earth.

The military applications become a gray area. As "surgical strikes" are almost impossible. It's not like civilized countries that have their military applications separate from residential areas. The U.S. Military doesn't use Centennial Olympic Park as a Training camp. So surgical strikes are better when fighting a country like that. Instead of a "country" that intertwines the civilian and military buildings. Not to mentioned the warehousing of weapons, ammunition,etc in civilian buildings. Which basically leaves out bombings since any strike immediately has Israel being damned in the eyes of the world when they are only trying to protect their people.

As for the actions the rest of the world should take. I believe in a DMZ between Israel and the Palestinian territories. While using peacekeeping forces (non-U.S. or Israeli) to police the Palestinian territories. While doing your suggesting in investing in the infrastructure (the peacekeeps would be tasked to safe guard these projects) It's clear that if Hamas stopped it's attacks then Israel will stop since Israel has only retaliated over the years instead of being the aggressor.

i think palestinians are pretty stupid. why would they start a war with a country which has military supremecy over them and economical power that they cant compete with?
yeah i think trying to reclaim your rightfull land from the invaders is a good thing as long as you have a fair chance to achive this geal. what the palistinians are doing is just suecide.
from the different angle i dont think any government in this world would allow its own citizens to be shelled by rockets coming from different nation just because they dont want to kill citizens of that nation,
i will say this with certainty if hamas doesnt find a way to stop the rockets (they even failed this during the cease fire) they will get retaliation and their economy and infastrucrute will be demolished and citizens killed along with the suspects

as i read this one thing just comes up in my mind, religion plays a hella big role in this but i cant believe this war has last this long both parties should just reach an agreement and stop with this stupid war they're pretty much gonna use up their resources and man power in this stupid war.

yeah i know this was just stupid wishful thinking as there were tons of blood already spilled that both cant agree with each other.

i find it weird there are some people here who think in terms of pure "justice" and "evil"....

and while the issue of who shot the first gun might be relevant here, i still think it's not that simple. this is war, and the problem is much more complicated. though i do believe a very large part of this is caused by religion, the best system ever invented by mankind. oh, wait, it's "religions".

nobody right or wins in this war, everyone is loser and the innocent ones is the true victim