Do Feminists Ever Consider That They Might Be Wrong?

Well standing up for such things is fine what the problem could be is how you go about achieving your goals. For example what is your idea to get rid of cat calls. I myself find it stupid but in the US anyway it would fall under free speech.

As for your bit about wanting the same pay. In a general sense there may be a gap(in the US) but we all work different jobs that have different rates of pay so there being a difference overall is not surprising to me. The world is made up of unequal outcomes.

Most of the posts are talking about the more extreme side of feminism and even those who are talking about it generally, I can agree with to an extent. I think that striving for equality is still something that should be advocated (nothing's ever 100% eradicated), but there is a better way to go about it then spamming the internet and starting rallies where you spit in peoples faces.

One of the main issues I've had with the current day movement is when you start to attack the people who you are trying to defend. I was considered a bitch for thinking that being a housewife is fine or that having my man take charge every once and a while was wrong. I thought it was odd that women who claimed to be feminist could be against their own gender when freedom of opinion is one main strive.

The feminist group on our college campus also hosts a "slut walk". You dress up in slutty clothing and hooker heels to make a statement that you shouldn't be raped for how you look. I don't disagree with the idea behind the rally, but honestly no person will take you seriously if you dress like a Detroit hooker. You can look sexy without showing your thong and flashing your tits, but some women just want to make a statement. To me the focus should be on showing women to feel confident in their own skin and to say you don't have to dress like a stripper to get attention.

The movement has made great strides in the past, but the term is applied too loosely to women who claim to fight for a cause they don't fully understand. Some just want to bully and put people down. To degrade men isn't the same as working with them for equality.

I don't subscribe to the argument that people who are apathetic are "responsible" (and by extension, "guilty" or "evil"). I vehemently disagree with people who are ignorant of the issue as "responsible".

People who don't actively work in support of an issue just aren't part of the solution. To create a false dichotomy where "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" is a mistaken logical fallacy, at best.
It's a commonly, and unfairly, used indictment by activists to try to garner support for their cause. In reality, it often serves to alienate potential supporters and radicalize the stances.

In summary, I say that I disagree with the premise of your question.

The whole problem with (most of the) feminist is that the issues they claim and support are not even realistic issues. Big part of it is just wanting to be a victim of some sort of social pressure, which under minds the struggles successful women go through to become successful.

The radical feminist are the most misogynist people there are, because they claim most of womens problems exist because of masculinity and because of male dominance, which obviously is not true in the western world. They claim female sexuality of wanting to be 'dominated' by their male partners is not really what they want, that is just an effect of male dominated culture, which obviously is not true, so on and so fort.

Personally i don't (to some extent) care what people label themselves or what they label other people, all i care about is the ideas they hold and support, whether they are logical, reasonable and rational. I don't label my self to any group, even though if i am asked "am i an atheist" "am i a feminist", i do give clear answers like yes and no, because i understand what those labels mean, but i think we would be better off if we didn't have them.

Topic question is completely applicable to your post.

"Women don't get equal pay" argument doesn't make sense. There's little to no disparity when you take these things into account:
Same fucking job.
Same region.
Same or similar diploma
Working same hours at same shift
Same amount of time worked with company/institution

As for catcalls, yeah it's shitty but what do you want people to do, outlaw it? That's ridiculous.

Well, equally payment depends of the country... Over here on Chile you got paid 20% to 30% less for the same job/preparation/anything under the assumption "you'll use soon or later the maternal secure, so you got paid less for that", yeah, it sucks, specially when you aren't even fertile and adoption doesn't apply to the law, lol.

It's really hard when you also consider that salaries here aren't that high (about 700$ dollars montly on a country where everything cost the same as on USA), most womens have to hold two works to sustain while mens only need one. It's frankly ridiculous.

And it's totally fair to bring that up in terms of your own country in which this disparity occurs. What our problem is is that a bunch if idiots are claiming that we(USA) have a similar problem, when in reality, we don't. It is literally crying over a misinterpretation of a popular study, and frankly, that is fucking sad in this day and age.

I say fight for what you need to be done where it is needed, but if it isn't needed(like the USA), then we don't need to fight for it here. It's like trying to make murder illegal.

Well, there are still problems on USA, if the data I have isn't wrong, but there aren't that troubling (the core problem was mostly solved and thus it's just a thing of time). Of course there's still a strong male/female social disparity (expressed in the way of barbies for girls and action man for mens), but luckily, that isn't harmful for the 60%> of people, and that because the core dogma has already changed, too (a lot more slowly, though).

Nevertheless, from a few public images and friends I know there are still (somewhat serious) troubles of parity at science institutions and a lot of other "high level institutions" (like trying to have a better rank at the military or trying to become a CEO at a company). Luckily that's also improving, but there's still place to improvement.

So, it stills makes sense for social parity and high rank parity, but it's pretty pointless for basic rights parity and generic Joe (this include college careers, but not masters) works parity, at least on USA. Here we have - a lot - of work to do (and sadly there wasn't a major improvement this decade).

Note that I'm a feminist but I dislike a lot the general movement like it's now nodaways (their methods sucks and there's a lot of feminazis that hates mens, too). I mean, I just prefer to make popular the idea of "don't discriminate for irrelevant things and things you don't know" and "never behave towards people by generalization, discriminate in a case by case basis". Why? Well, it works, really a lot, and specially, it works for anything that is socially stupid (like racism), not merely for womens.

A lot of the things you mentioned are to me exactly the problem of feminism, you claim that there are issues and injustice towards women, when (in my opinion) in reality there is none.



What data?




Is this really a problem, a social disparity that needs to be fought against and change? Barbies for girls and G.I. Joes for boys? I don't know if this is clever advertisements fault, but even if this is a world wide culture thing, i don't understand what is the problem, why we need feminism on a 'issue' like this?

Ever thought about the possibility that girls are more likely to play with barbies and baby dolls regardless of the culture, that it is a genetic thing maybe?




Yet again another issue that doesn't realistically exist. Not only that you haven't probably considered the factors cruz737 mentioned, but women are more likely to pick jobs or careers that don't have the possibility of becoming a CEO. They are less likely (at least some years ago, don't know how it is now) to go into science field or other high level institutions or go to army. The reason there are so few women in these fields is because so few women go into these fields, it is not because of sexism or misogyny.

And the idea that half of these CEOs and high level positions should be women simply because they have a vagina is ridicules. You become a CEO or any high level employee based on your skills and merits, not whether you have a penis or not. The CEO of Facebook, Microsoft, Apple and the thousands of other companies is a man, because it was a man who started that company. So few women in comparison to men start up their own companies and there for so few women become CEOs or any high ranking employees.




Outside of the western countries (like USA, Canada, Europe & maybe Australia) i totally agree that women not only should fight for better rights, but they deserve better rights. Places like South-America, Africa, Middle-East and Asia, those places men are placed above women, and in those places i agree that feminism is a good and (IMO) justified cause.

But still, we do not need parity for the sake of parity. In my opinion it is stupid thing to say that we need to have more women in high ranking positions just for the sake of parity. No, we need skilled and capable people in high ranking positions, who ever that skilled person might be.




In the western countries, women are not generalized or discriminated against. I do agree that in the lesser developed countries women are discriminated against and that is wrong, and i support feminism in those countries.

double pug post happened, shjiiiiiiiit

If you're part from the "canon" it isn't harmful, but when you don't form part of the social canon, it's a really big, and serious problem. Luckily canons are formed by majorities and thus the majority isn't having problems with it, so it isn't a big issue, but still an issue nodaways. For example if you're a boy and you want to play with that barbie, you got harassed and society makes you feel bad for the sake of it.

The problem with the feminist movement is that they just want to change the canon rather than advocate for not having canon in the first place.

It isn't for the sake of parity but rather for the sake of real equal chances, and today, that isn't true. Because currently womens are perceived to don't pursued those things (thing that is fake, but anyway), when you try to purse those things, you got bias banged when trying unless you're excessive more skilled than anyone else.

Note: The "canon" problem isn't just a thing that affects womens but about everything. You're not married? Fattie? Less payment and employment for the sake of that and so on for any unnecessary discrimination. This also comes to mens, for example they are constantly reports of harassment for male nursers on USA.

And i already explained how this "really big and serious problem" isn't a real problem. Yes, i am a white man and if there is an opening for high ranking job at my company and there is a woman who does the work we do better than i do, she will be hired, not me. And this is true generally for the western countries. I get it that maybe in Chile and other lesser developed countries this is not the case, but in western countries this is the case. Men are not hired more because of sexism and misogyny.

You are undermining every successful woman who becomes successful on her own, by saying we need more women hired in high ranking jobs, because women are not part of some 'canon' in our societies. Successful women make it to the top based on their skills and merits, just like men do.




This canon doesn't exist in the western countries to the extent you claim it does.




Maybe what you are talking about is true in South-America, i live in Finland, so i can't speak for every country in the world. But generally speaking in the western countries, every successful person (men and women) who makes it to the top in their own field, makes it there based on their skills and merits, not whether they had a penis or vagina.




Well yeah, you can be discriminated or harassed about anything, about any feature you have can be used against you. So this 'canon' problem doesn't go away until no human being does no harm to another human being, a utopia which sounds like unreachable. (I am not saying we shouldn't try to reach it.)

I don't say we need more womens in high ranks or whatever (in fact I hate the laws and related that forces that). I say there shouldn't be discrimination for arbitrary things! If a gal wants to be a housewife like Misaki_Chi, she shouldn't get harassed for that like she said she was for a feminists. If a boy wants to play with a barbie he shouldn't be harassed for that, neither! That's just plain ridiculous and yet happens all the time unless you "fit" perfectly.

The high ranks stuff comes to that, because of the existing social dogmas they're applied biases that, on the high point of the scale are still affecting negatively. It also affects to non-standard jobs for certain jobs like male nursers or female mechanics in a certain degree. More than a few detailed reports (from ONU and a lot of others organizations) of the issue exists on developed countries, too.

It is a serious problem? Nope. Basics rights are archived and most of population is getting an equally treatment at work, too, but there are still spaces to improvement that shouldn't just overlooked and deemed as useless at first glance (and this is specially true for racism, classicism and other - more importantly - underlying problems).

Note: I'm not even a movement-pro gal, I said that the feminist movement (worldwide) is a shadow that it was decades ago. I'm just of the idea treat everyone equally, try that others do that by example (and showing the problems) and that's all. Let things goes natural from that point.

So what you are talking about are social and cultural issues, stigmas, bullying, gender roles, so fort and so on.

For sure those things exist and happen all the time every where, but that has nothing to do with equal rights (yes, i know feminism also fights against social norms). I agree that a female officers in the army probably get harassed by their male counterparts and sometimes are not taken as seriously as male officers are for example. And i agree that the things that are deemed culturally weird or unacceptable (like a boy playing with a barby doll) should be abandoned to the past.

But these type of things are not fixed in a year and i would say these type of things are not fixed by feminist social warriors on the internet either. These type of cultural and society based issues usually change when the generations change. That is why for example i think it is only a matter of time when gay and lesbian couples have the same rights everywhere as straight couples have, because the new generation is more acceptable of gay people than the old generation is, plus the new generation is not as bigoted as the old one.

I am not saying you shouldn't fight for the change, of coarse you should. What i am saying is that you shouldn't demand and/or expect people to change over night. If there is something that people are harassing you over, in my view, that should be the thing you are most proud of. Don't just be who you are, be proud of who you are and what you stand for.

Oh, sorry, I should have send the message more filled up or edited fasted.

I was about putting this:

Note: I'm not even a movement-pro gal, I said that the feminist movement (worldwide) is a shadow that it was decades ago. I'm just of the idea of treat everyone equally, try that others do that by example (and showing the problems) and that's all. Let things goes natural from that point.

Sure, and i personally believe that we in fact need feminism in places like Middle-East, Asia and Africa, places where real inequality exists and where women actually either don't have rights, or less rights than men do.

Still sightly needed on USA (mainly south states), South and some of Southeastern Europe (Ukraine, Spain, Greek and so forth), but nonetheless, the big rights issues are outside North America/Europe/South Oceania.

About the (most) developed countries I just talked about social disparity (stigma) and work field harassment on specific cases (like male nursers and "housewifes" and female scientist or soldiers). And that social stigma still negatively affects on the higher ranks on average. Not that there are other issues or that those issues are serious (except social disparity for a minority of persons).

And not that there are needed "forcefully" measures to be taken (like putting an obligatory % for CEOs and so), I dislike that a lot. It is more just a thing of time and to avoid denying that everything is 100% perfect in any sense now (those who completely deny something are unable to improve).

Note: Because most of those troubles on the (most) developed countries are even affecting more negatively mens than womens, I think the label feminism isn't even proper at all, an yes, I know feminism means equality, but that isn't like people understand it, people treat the term more for the side of empowering woman.

Fun fact (or maybe it isn't fun, but i found it funny), Turkey is currently looking for more females to join the army and train them as snipers for the conflict with ISIS, because the ISIS soldiers believe they cannot get into heaven if they are killed by a women.

Without a question things are not 100% perfect now, but i just dislike how some (or most almost) feminist on the internet claim that there isn't equality between the sexes in the western countries when there is. And yes, workplace harassment towards women exists on all levels (it does exist towards men too, lets not forget that), social stigmas exist, so on and so fort. But those examples are usually society or culture specific and we need to change that, not yell that all women every where don't have equal rights to men.

Also i think i already mentioned this earlier, but i think we should get rid off these labels such as feminist and masculinist, and instead of trying to figure out which camp you belong to more, we should focus more on specific ideas as to how to improve our societies and cultures. We should get rid of the bad ideas and support and sponsor good ideas, people also (in my view) should better understand what they themselves are for, instead of simply joining in on the bandwagon of popular idea.

I consider the possibility that I might be wrong every day. I'm not, but I consider it.