Strike!
3
This project started out as an entry for the 2014 Winter Writing Contest, but shit happens. After I was done, I knew I had a setting and characters I wanted to continue to explore.
Strike! follows the lives of several gang members in a fantasy world in a time ripe with supernatural entities and the onset of technological advances.
The first spoiler contains the original submission to the contest, but you can just skip that if you want and follow the links in the second spoiler.
Strike! follows the lives of several gang members in a fantasy world in a time ripe with supernatural entities and the onset of technological advances.
The first spoiler contains the original submission to the contest, but you can just skip that if you want and follow the links in the second spoiler.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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leonard267
FAKKU Non-Writer
Alas, I tried reading it quickly once and I did not understand it. I tried reading it more slowly but I still did not understand it.
Finally I read it with someone else and he thought that it is roughly about a gangster who belongs to a gang called the "Hounds" trying to lay his hands on some kind of artifact which appeared to be a gun. The rival gang the "Sabers" had their hands on that artifact. You appear to have an aversion to stating the background of the entire story outright, something along these lines:
"The thug was a member of the Hounds, a powerful group of organised criminals who operated in that God forsaken city. He begun bragging about his exploits against the Sabers, their arch-rivals. He brandished an object for any who would listen to him to see. It appeared to be the spoils from his latest adventures tussling with other thugs just like himself but of different affiliation. The object was allegedly some device that harnesses the powers of the Gods if his words were to be believed."
I can point out a few things that frustrated me but it all really boils down to matters not being explained early enough in the story or not at all. Here are a few of my observations:
1. Main characters including the narrator himself are not properly introduced. I don't see the entry indicating clearly that he is a member of the Hounds gang. (That would have made the motivations of the characters a lot more clearer) Who were Tara, Raven et. al? By who I meant what were their roles in this story? They were not made clear either. The reader, as you must have intended, had to guess or deduce who they were and which gang did they belong to. I dislike guessing and deducing intensely.
Some sentences that contained words like "Enforcers" confounded me even further. Was our main character a law enforcer cracking down on the two rival gangs? To make matters worse, he did not seem to associate himself with the Hounds by speaking of how he was in fear or awe of the Hounds when he was young.
2. There were leaps in the narration, most notably the part where the fight between the Saber gang and the main characters were cut short to the scene back at the tavern where our lead shows Raven what you call an arquebus and what I call a gun.
3. While I was furnished some information about the Gods, (They appear to me to be persons with superpowers rather than creators of the earth) they don't really appear in the story. You can leave out any mention of the Gods and the story would be more or less the same.
4. There are also dialogue which I thought were irrelevant to the story. In fact, I saw them as fillers like the banter about Xander's weight. They wouldn't be a problem if not for the word limit for this event.
Finally I read it with someone else and he thought that it is roughly about a gangster who belongs to a gang called the "Hounds" trying to lay his hands on some kind of artifact which appeared to be a gun. The rival gang the "Sabers" had their hands on that artifact. You appear to have an aversion to stating the background of the entire story outright, something along these lines:
"The thug was a member of the Hounds, a powerful group of organised criminals who operated in that God forsaken city. He begun bragging about his exploits against the Sabers, their arch-rivals. He brandished an object for any who would listen to him to see. It appeared to be the spoils from his latest adventures tussling with other thugs just like himself but of different affiliation. The object was allegedly some device that harnesses the powers of the Gods if his words were to be believed."
I can point out a few things that frustrated me but it all really boils down to matters not being explained early enough in the story or not at all. Here are a few of my observations:
1. Main characters including the narrator himself are not properly introduced. I don't see the entry indicating clearly that he is a member of the Hounds gang. (That would have made the motivations of the characters a lot more clearer) Who were Tara, Raven et. al? By who I meant what were their roles in this story? They were not made clear either. The reader, as you must have intended, had to guess or deduce who they were and which gang did they belong to. I dislike guessing and deducing intensely.
Some sentences that contained words like "Enforcers" confounded me even further. Was our main character a law enforcer cracking down on the two rival gangs? To make matters worse, he did not seem to associate himself with the Hounds by speaking of how he was in fear or awe of the Hounds when he was young.
2. There were leaps in the narration, most notably the part where the fight between the Saber gang and the main characters were cut short to the scene back at the tavern where our lead shows Raven what you call an arquebus and what I call a gun.
3. While I was furnished some information about the Gods, (They appear to me to be persons with superpowers rather than creators of the earth) they don't really appear in the story. You can leave out any mention of the Gods and the story would be more or less the same.
4. There are also dialogue which I thought were irrelevant to the story. In fact, I saw them as fillers like the banter about Xander's weight. They wouldn't be a problem if not for the word limit for this event.
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It appears I have a long ways to go before mastering this style of yours. I'm also thinking that maybe it isn't that some of the in-story explanations are poor, it's that they just don't match your expectations. Don't get me wrong. That's not me attempting to defend my story or bash you. I just happened to have this thought, and I think it could have some truth to it. Of course, I specifically told you I was gonna try writing like you for a story, thus any expectations you had would be justified, and so the problem is mine.
I thought it was obvious from the information I gave. I thought it was obvious that Garm is a Hound. Although, Raven is meant to be a bit more mysterious. There were some lines indicating as much that were unfortunately cut so this entry could fit the word count.
Something else I thought extremely obvious. When I hear a gang member describe himself as an enforcer, I instantly have a pretty good idea of what he does for a living.
Garm isn't your typical thug. I don't show him being in fear or awe of the Hounds because he isn't in fear or awe of them. I can see how a character not conforming to what someone has in mind can throw them off however.
Aight.
Ran out of budget word count. You best believe there would have been more about the gods if this entry was confined to 2000 words. I suppose I focused on too much again.
Call them darlings I couldn't kill. I'm still working myself up to coldblooded murder.
Leonard wrote...
1. Main characters including the narrator himself are not properly introduced. I don't see the entry indicating clearly that he is a member of the Hounds gang.Spoiler:
Who were Tara, Raven et. al? By who I meant what were their roles in this story? They were not made clear either.
I thought it was obvious from the information I gave. I thought it was obvious that Garm is a Hound. Although, Raven is meant to be a bit more mysterious. There were some lines indicating as much that were unfortunately cut so this entry could fit the word count.
Some sentences that contained words like "Enforcers" confounded me even further.
Something else I thought extremely obvious. When I hear a gang member describe himself as an enforcer, I instantly have a pretty good idea of what he does for a living.
To make matters worse, he did not seem to associate himself with the Hounds by speaking of how he was in fear or awe of the Hounds when he was young.
Garm isn't your typical thug. I don't show him being in fear or awe of the Hounds because he isn't in fear or awe of them. I can see how a character not conforming to what someone has in mind can throw them off however.
2. There were leaps in the narration, most notably the part where the fight between the Saber gang and the main characters were cut short to the scene back at the tavern where our lead shows Raven what you call an arquebus and what I call a gun.
Aight.
3. While I was furnished some information about the Gods, (They appear to me to be persons with superpowers rather than creators of the earth) they don't really appear in the story. You can leave out any mention of the Gods and the story would be more or less the same.
Ran out of budget word count. You best believe there would have been more about the gods if this entry was confined to 2000 words. I suppose I focused on too much again.
4. There are also dialogue which I thought were irrelevant to the story. In fact, I saw them as fillers like the banter about Xander's weight. They wouldn't be a problem if not for the word limit for this event.
Call them darlings I couldn't kill. I'm still working myself up to coldblooded murder.
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leonard267
FAKKU Non-Writer
d(^_^)(^_^)d wrote...
It appears I have a long ways to go before mastering this style of yours. I'm also thinking that maybe it isn't that some of the in-story explanations are poor, it's that they just don't match your expectations. Don't get me wrong. That's not me attempting to defend my story or bash you. I just happened to have this thought, and I think it could have some truth to it. Of course, I specifically told you I was gonna try writing like you for a story, thus any expectations you had would be justified, and so the problem is mine. Leonard wrote...
1. Main characters including the narrator himself are not properly introduced. I don't see the entry indicating clearly that he is a member of the Hounds gang.Spoiler:
You will have to ask other people if they could understand what you wrote. If you ask me, I would say that the story provides very poor exposition because it shies away from straightforward explanations. I had no idea that Garm is a Hound until someone else pointed it out to me. Since I did not know what Garm was, I don't know who Xander, Tara, Raven and the rest were too.
The paragraph in the spoiler was an example of what I thought was poor explanation and an attempt to imply rather than to state outright very, very important information i.e. 'Who Garm was'.
It wasn’t until I finally gave in to the destiny that awaits all lowborn worth anything and joined that the Sabers began gathering momentum. That was four years ago.
Joined what exactly? The sentence reads very awkwardly to me. I interpreted that as Garm joining the Sabers because they had gained clout in the city! Garm's identity as a Hound could only be made clear after I some reader who is better at comprehension than me reads through what happened later. Then I went back and read:
When I was growing up, the Hounds ran the streets with an iron fist or as close as anyone ever got to.
That doesn't strike me as the language a member of the Hounds would use. It struck me more as the language a very impressed (and fearful) outsider would use.
Their anonymous leader, who legend has it is known by only two people, sat content on his throne, which had been rigged together from the bones of his enemies.
This sentence made no sense to me. I suppose the leader of the Hounds climbed the greasy pole and ruthlessly persecuted his adversaries to become leader. What does that have to do with the Hounds losing ground to the Sabers this paragraph does not tell (and it does contribute to the story being confusing for me)
I wrote...
"The thug was a member of the Hounds, a powerful group of organised criminals who operated in that God forsaken city. He begun bragging about his exploits against the Sabers, their arch-rivals. He brandished an object for any who would listen to him to see. It appeared to be the spoils from his latest adventures tussling with other thugs just like himself but of different affiliation. The object was allegedly some device that harnesses the powers of the Gods if his words were to be believed."
This is what I think I would have preferred to read. I am not sure if you remember my parody of xninebreaker's Winter Contest entry, "Out Xnining Xninebreaker". It has zero dialogue and a lot of the story was devoted to third person exposition. Characterisation of the main characters was also done in third person which lead to a few people complaining that it sounded like lore.
However, I thought it explained things the best.
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Joined what exactly? The sentence reads very awkwardly to me. I interpreted that as Garm joining the Sabers because they had gained clout in the city! Garm's identity as a Hound could only be made clear after I some reader who is better at comprehension than me reads through what happened later. Then I went back and read:
I get what you're saying now. I added two additional words that should clear things up a bit.
That doesn't strike me as the language a member of the Hounds would use. It struck me more as the language a very impressed (and fearful) outsider would use.
Really? I'm just not seeing it.
This sentence made no sense to me. I suppose the leader of the Hounds climbed the greasy pole and ruthlessly persecuted his adversaries to become leader. What does that have to do with the Hounds losing ground to the Sabers this paragraph does not tell (and it does contribute to the story being confusing for me)
The paragraph isn't about the gang war between the Hounds and the Sabers. It's about the history of the Hounds on which the Sabers have had a profound impact.
This is what I think I would have preferred to read. I am not sure if you remember my parody of xninebreaker's Winter Contest entry, "Out Xnining Xninebreaker". It has zero dialogue and a lot of the story was devoted to third person exposition. Characterisation of the main characters was also done in third person which lead to a few people complaining that it sounded like lore.
Now I remember why I prefer my usual style to yours. To flat out say everything like that in one, simple paragraph makes me die a little on the inside. Don't get me wrong though. I'm far from done from experimenting.
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well, i could understand the story. so the narrator didn't really mean anything beside telling what happened. he heard about the item, and got it by a chance encounter. probably the question in the first part could be answered if there's a sequel, but I find it to be a quite entertaining read as it is.
so i take it the author probably didn't really imply anything. maybe kind of, you know, just write anything he wants or seems fun and let the readers interpret it according to their liking.
it's like a friend telling a story about his experience, but in the end, i kinda figure out there seems probably a secret the narrator doesn't want anyone to find out, and decided to end the story there. it adds to the character i guess. it might seem out-of-place if he decided to reveal everything it out of nowhere.
the reason why i do understand is probably because the setting is quite familiar to me and it's written in some easy to understand words, the story idea isn't all that complicated either: pretty straightforward but able to spark some intrigue.
i guess that's all for my input :D
so i take it the author probably didn't really imply anything. maybe kind of, you know, just write anything he wants or seems fun and let the readers interpret it according to their liking.
it's like a friend telling a story about his experience, but in the end, i kinda figure out there seems probably a secret the narrator doesn't want anyone to find out, and decided to end the story there. it adds to the character i guess. it might seem out-of-place if he decided to reveal everything it out of nowhere.
the reason why i do understand is probably because the setting is quite familiar to me and it's written in some easy to understand words, the story idea isn't all that complicated either: pretty straightforward but able to spark some intrigue.
i guess that's all for my input :D
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high_time wrote...
so i take it the author probably didn't really imply anything. maybe kind of, you know, just write anything he wants or seems fun and let the readers interpret it according to their liking.That is my preferred writing style, but I did try to be more explanatory here and leave less up to the guesswork of readers.
Thanks. I'm glad you liked it overall.
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leonard267
FAKKU Non-Writer
high_time wrote...
so i take it the author probably didn't really imply anything. maybe kind of, you know, just write anything he wants or seems fun and let the readers interpret it according to their liking.
Of course the narrator had no intention of making things unclear. However if I were part of Garm's audience I would call him a lousy storyteller because he doesn't address clearly the 3 husbands and 1 wife namely who, what, where and how. Instead, he goes into thick of the action which doesn't make sense to this listener. As far as this listener is concerned, Garm is in his own dream world.
I wonder if you have read the comments before reading the story. The person whom I read it with came to the conclusion that Garm was a Hound by inferring from the context of Garm being with Xander, Tara et. al. He called d's story vague at places.
d(^_^)(^_^)d wrote...
Really? I'm just not seeing it.Well, if Garm were part of the Hounds I expect him to use sentences like, "My gang ran the streets with an iron fist..."
Now I remember why I prefer my usual style to yours. To flat out say everything like that in one, simple paragraph makes me die a little on the inside.
The style I prefer is not exactly revealing the entire story but providing what I feel are the necessary details for the reader to understand the story. If you happen to read my remarks about Mibuchiha's story (it is full of criticism of your style, I am sorry), you will find repeating pretty much whatever I stated in this thread.
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leonard267 wrote...
Well, if Garm were part of the Hounds I expect him to use sentences like, "My gang ran the streets with an iron fist..." It just occurred to me that I don't understand why a member can't be impressed and even fearful of his own gang. I guess it comes down to the expectations we have of gang members, and regardless of what ours are, we should be weary of those of others.
The style I prefer is not exactly revealing the entire story but providing what I feel are the necessary details for the reader to understand the story. If you happen to read my remarks about Mibuchiha's story (it is full of criticism of your style, I am sorry), you will find repeating pretty much whatever I stated in this thread.
No offense, but I don't really want to go into another conversation about this. I think we both know where we stand. Buuuuuuuut, I'm not saying that your example of how the narration should have gone reveals the whole story at once. What I mean is it just reveals too much information too fast. Now, I don't say that because I think people are stupid, and it's too much for them to handle. The issue I have with it is it's not organic. It kinda goes back to show, don't tell. I'd rather show that a guy has glasses by having him take them off to clean them rather than saying, "That guy has glasses." By introducing information in a more organic matter, it also gives more context to it and gives readers more of a reason to care about it in my opinion.
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The story and writing style sucked me in. I liked how you kept a feel of mystery for the characters, including the narrator who abruptly ended the story, which made me think that he could be hiding something. Furthermore, the setting was solid. I'd honestly want a continuation as for the other things that Garm has done as a member of the Hounds, more about Raven since the readers don't really get much about her info, etc.
If there's one negative thing I'd have to say about your entry, however, it would be that I personally think Tara should be a bit more significant.
Something to clarify though, is the "anonymous leader" of the Hounds the same person as Xander, Garm's boss? I apologize if it's just me misreading or not comprehending well enough.
Great job making the story!
If there's one negative thing I'd have to say about your entry, however, it would be that I personally think Tara should be a bit more significant.
Something to clarify though, is the "anonymous leader" of the Hounds the same person as Xander, Garm's boss? I apologize if it's just me misreading or not comprehending well enough.
Great job making the story!
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RavenxSinon wrote...
The story and writing style sucked me in. I liked how you kept a feel of mystery for the characters, including the narrator who abruptly ended the story, which made me think that he could be hiding something.Wow, thanks! Though admittedly, the ending wouldn't have been as abrupt if it didn't have to be under 2000 words. If you're interested, I have written another short story you can find here that takes place in the same universe.
I'd honestly want a continuation as for the other things that Garm has done as a member of the Hounds, more about Raven since the readers don't really get much about her info, etc.
I'll make no promises at this point, but I would definitely like to further explore this world and the characters that inhabit it. Raven's a guy by the way.
If there's one negative thing I'd have to say about your entry, however, it would be that I personally think Tara should be a bit more significant.
There were lots of things that couldn't be included so this story would fit the word count for the contest. I had to keep its focus narrow, and as Leonard will tell you, I didn't do nearly as good a job of that as I could of.
Something to clarify though, is the "anonymous leader" of the Hounds the same person as Xander, Garm's boss? I apologize if it's just me misreading or not comprehending well enough.
No, it is not Xander. He and several are in charge of running the Hounds' operations in various parts of the city, and they all answer to the mysterious leader. No need to apologize. If something's difficult to comprehend, then I didn't do my job right.
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leonard267
FAKKU Non-Writer
No offense, but I don't really want to go into another conversation about this. I think we both know where we stand. Buuuuuuuut, I'm not saying that your example of how the narration should have gone reveals the whole story at once. What I mean is it just reveals too much information too fast. Now, I don't say that because I think people are stupid, and it's too much for them to handle. The issue I have with it is it's not organic. It kinda goes back to show, don't tell. I'd rather show that a guy has glasses by having him take them off to clean them rather than saying, "That guy has glasses." By introducing information in a more organic matter, it also gives more context to it and gives readers more of a reason to care about it in my opinion.
I don't understand what you mean by 'organic' but I picture a person telling me a story verbally whenever I read a story and this inspired my suggestion of what I would have liked written. (See paragraph of your story written by me) He must at least tell me where the story is set and who the characters are. If by 'organic' you mean 'natural', then I think it is as natural as it can get.
In response to your 'that guy has glasses' analogy I won't describe an accident as blood splattered, mangled bodies and wrecked cars. I would say that the driver lost control of his car and crashed into another car. I think the traffic police would be more happy with that in their report.
I was taught to write as if everyone is stupid, strangely enough. Again, I am a reader of non-fiction. The advice of 'writing speeches as if everyone is 15 years old', obviously applies to non-fiction and it is something I subscribe to.
Contrary to what you say, your way of introducing information confuses this reader so much that I am not in a position to care you see? Not to say that your method of presentation is lousy. It only appears that I am the only person who has that problem.
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Leonard wrote...
I don't understand what you mean by 'organic' but I picture a person telling me a story verbally whenever I read a story and this inspired my suggestion of what I would have liked written. (See paragraph of your story written by me) He must at least tell me where the story is set and who the characters are. If by 'organic' you mean 'natural', then I think it is as natural as it can get.I picture stories playing out like a movie, scene by scene. I don't approach writing stories with the assumption that the person telling them will succinctly give me all the info I need to know because people are like that in my experience.
In response to your 'that guy has glasses' analogy I won't describe an accident as blood splattered, mangled bodies and wrecked cars. I would say that the driver lost control of his car and crashed into another car. I think the traffic police would be more happy with that in their report.
Yes, but we're not writing reports to traffic police. If the aftermath of this accident is being experienced firsthand by a character, I'd ask myself what would he notice first? The mangled bodies, the flashing lights of emergency vehicles? How the crash happened would be a distant thought.
I was taught to write as if everyone is stupid, strangely enough. Again, I am a reader of non-fiction. The advice of 'writing speeches as if everyone is 15 years old', obviously applies to non-fiction and it is something I subscribe to.
I was taught to write essays that way. In fiction however, people usually don't like being spoon-fed.
Contrary to what you say, your way of introducing information confuses this reader so much that I am not in a position to care you see? Not to say that your method of presentation is lousy. It only appears that I am the only person who has that problem.
Yes, and I still can't figure out why, just as I'm sure you can't figure out why I can't figure it out, which is why I wasn't too keen on starting another conversation about this. It's like the western front all over again.
Btw, you may or may not care to know I plan on reading Lord of the Rings in the future after I get through the ten or so other books I have to read.
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leonard267
FAKKU Non-Writer
d(^_^)(^_^)d wrote...
I picture stories playing out like a movie, scene by scene. I don't approach writing stories with the assumption that the person telling them will succinctly give me all the info I need to know because people are like that in my experience.
I hope we can continue arguing. This is very interesting. You see yourself writing a movie while I see myself writing a speech. Without any visual aids, I thought it is best to do what you call spoonfeeding so the reader has an idea of what I trying to convey. Which leads me to quote this:
Yes, but we're not writing reports to traffic police. If the aftermath of this accident is being experienced firsthand by a character, I'd ask myself what would he notice first? The mangled bodies, the flashing lights of emergency vehicles? How the crash happened would be a distant thought.
To further elaborate what I mean by a storyteller verbally telling me a story, can I use the example of how I would describe a road accident? If I were to describe to someone else what happened, I would have to say that two cars are involved in an accident. If I can't have that established, then how can I bother with how the driver felt? Would my interlocutor bother with what the driver felt? I doubt it. These are the expectations I have towards what others write.
I was taught to write essays that way. In fiction however, people usually don't like being spoon-fed.
Why? A lot of stories require spoonfeeding of who are the characters and what is the setting before going into the details. I can't imagine that I would understand the fairy tales I read when I was young if it were written in the style of more modern work. I once again refer you the Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio or The Hobbit of fiction where the important parts are spelt out.
Yes, and I still can't figure out why, just as I'm sure you can't figure out why I can't figure it out, which is why I wasn't too keen on starting another conversation about this. It's like the western front all over again.
Why not continue to argue? It keeps your thread on top of the page and I might be in a position to better understand your work. That aside, I hope you understood the reasons why I couldn't figure your work out. DatYuriThough and Shikinokami produced work I quite liked. Same with some of high_time's anecdotal accounts of some event in his life.
Btw, you may or may not care to know I plan on reading Lord of the Rings in the future after I get through the ten or so other books I have to read.
You might like the Lord of the Rings prologue as much as I like the Game of Thrones prologue. Let me give you an excerpt. I can just picture dropping the prologue and jumping straight to the "Long Expected Party", the first chapter of the novel. That said, the foreword and preface are interesting. They cover the trouble taken to produce the current edition and Tolkien's thoughts when coming up with his magnum opus.
Spoiler:
You can say that I am inspired by this way of writing. (Concerning XXXX, Xenon might want to take note where my penchant on starting with titles containing the word 'concerning' comes from) We don't know what the Red Book of Westmarch is but at least Bilbo is introduced and it essentially says since you don't have the Red Book of Westmarch, I am going to show you its contents here in the prologue.
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leonard267 wrote...
You see yourself writing a movie while I see myself writing a speech.To clarify, I don't literally see myself as writing a movie.
To further elaborate what I mean by a storyteller verbally telling me a story, can I use the example of how I would describe a road accident? If I were to describe to someone else what happened, I would have to say that two cars are involved in an accident. If I can't have that established, then how can I bother with how the driver felt? Would my interlocutor bother with what the driver felt? I doubt it. These are the expectations I have towards what others write.
You are correct, but writing a story and relating one by word of mouth are two different things. The way people talk is different from the way they write. Were I telling someone of an accident I'd heard of, I'd start off with the important details as you would and as I imagine the majority of people would. But were I writing a scene in a story involving an accident, I'd go with what I said earlier unless of course I was writing about two people talking about an accident, in which case I'd try to make their dialogue sound as natural as possible.
Why? A lot of stories require spoonfeeding of who are the characters and what is the setting before going into the details. I can't imagine that I would understand the fairy tales I read when I was young if it were written in the style of more modern work. I once again refer you the Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio or The Hobbit of fiction where the important parts are spelt out.
Fair tales spoon-feed because they're meant for children. The rules as I know them that apply to adult fiction don't apply to young adult fiction and children's books.
Sometimes info dumps cannot be avoided. Sometimes facts must be relayed as quickly as possible for the sake of pacing. Usually though, it's much more stimulating to read something in which information can be picked up on implicitly as opposed to having it explicitly stated.
Why not continue to argue? It keeps your thread on top of the page and I might be in a position to better understand your work. That aside, I hope you understood the reasons why I couldn't figure your work out. DatYuriThough and Shikinokami produced work I quite liked. Same with some of high_time's anecdotal accounts of some event in his life.
As I said, it doesn't feel like we're going anywhere. Both of us believe we're right, and the other is wrong. Arguments don't work with that mentality. However, it's been interesting to say the least, if not the best use of our time, but if you wish to continue, bring it!
Yeah, it's keeping my entry on the top of the page, but it doesn't really matter when you think about it. I expect that the only people who are gonna read and comment are those who have also entered the competition. And to those who have taken the time to read it but have chosen not to comment, I'm grateful my story sounded interesting enough for you to dedicate a small portion of your day to reading it, and hopefully you liked it.
You might like the Lord of the Rings prologue as much as I like the Game of Thrones prologue. Let me give you an excerpt. I can just picture dropping the prologue and jumping straight to the "Long Expected Party", the first chapter of the novel. That said, the foreword and preface are interesting. They cover the trouble taken to produce the current edition and Tolkien's thoughts when coming up with his magnum opus.
Nah, I wouldn't skip it. I'd just take days to finish it. Oddly enough, I don't find the excerpt to be too bad, but by and largely, you're right.
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leonard267
FAKKU Non-Writer
You are correct, but writing a story and relating one by word of mouth are two different things. The way people talk is different from the way they write.
You miss the point. It doesn't matter if I had to write a report or verbally communicate what had happened or even write a story about it. I still need to make clear the setting (two cars crashed) before I continue to other details. (like how the driver felt and the mess) I find myself a traditionalist when it comes to writing. I am quite sure the first written stories were putting what can said through word of mouth into words.
Fair tales spoon-feed because they're meant for children. The rules as I know them that apply to adult fiction don't apply to young adult fiction and children's books.
You mean modern adult fiction of which I harbour a growing dislike of. I hated the first Stephen King book I read and I hated George Martin. Rowling's Harry Potter series don't suffer the same problems I pointed out in the Game of Thrones though.
I have to say that Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio not specifically targeted at children. Part of its appeal is that its stories appeal to all ages.
Usually though, it's much more stimulating to read something in which information can be picked up on implicitly as opposed to having it explicitly stated.
It isn't for me regrettably. It is a recipe for confusion and it doesn't draw me in. Essential information like who the main character is must be given at least!
I'm grateful my story sounded interesting enough for you to dedicate a small portion of your day to reading it, and hopefully you liked it.
I'm afraid I enjoyed complaining about it and demanding you to clarify what had happened. Please don't take it the wrong way. If I come up with something for the competition, it will be most likely something you wouldn't like and we can argue all day about it. It is really my love of argument that is driving me here and I feel that it goes somewhere.
Nah, I wouldn't skip it. I'd just take days to finish it. Oddly enough, I don't find the excerpt to be too bad, but by and largely, you're right.
It is very informative though. The prologue to Romeo and Juliet is even worse (even though it is a play). It spoils the story! Again it is quite like my recommendation of what you might considering writing. I suggested a description of Garm getting hold of the arquebus then going into how he laid his hands on it.
Your style of writing appears to be inspired by George Martin. I think it is quite fair to say that Tolkien influenced my writing style.
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leonard267 wrote...
You miss the point. It doesn't matter if I had to write a report or verbally communicate what had happened or even write a story about it. I still need to make clear the setting (two cars crashed) before I continue to other details. (like how the driver felt and the mess) I find myself a traditionalist when it comes to writing. I am quite sure the first written stories were putting what can said through word of mouth into words.I've never thought about it, but I guess it makes sense.
You mean modern adult fiction of which I harbour a growing dislike of. I hated the first Stephen King book I read and I hated George Martin. Rowling's Harry Potter series don't suffer the same problems I pointed out in the Game of Thrones though.
I have to say that Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio not specifically targeted at children. Part of its appeal is that its stories appeal to all ages.
I have to say that Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio not specifically targeted at children. Part of its appeal is that its stories appeal to all ages.
I haven't checked it out, but if it's meant for all ages, then that means while adults can enjoy it, it's also made accessible for children.
It isn't for me regrettably. It is a recipe for confusion and it doesn't draw me in. Essential information like who the main character is must be given at least!
Well, yeah. But even then, it's better to have some context first before giving it. And as I've already said, not every detail can or should be presented in a roundabout manner. I don't think roundabout's the right word to use there. But I can't think of anything else right now.
I'm afraid I enjoyed complaining about it and demanding you to clarify what had happened. Please don't take it the wrong way. If I come up with something for the competition, it will be most likely something you wouldn't like and we can argue all day about it. It is really my love of argument that is driving me here and I feel that it goes somewhere.
Understandable. My favorite thing about the video game Destiny is talking about how bad it is and how terrible the developer's response is to people's complaints about it. Not that I'm comparing my story to Destiny in any way. As for any entry you submit, we'll see. Arguing can be amusing, but most of the fun usually comes from brainwashing your opponent into adopting your views.
It is very informative though. The prologue to Romeo and Juliet is even worse (even though it is a play). It spoils the story!
Really? I don't remember that. I guess it has been eight years since I read it though. However, spoiling the story isn't always a bad thing. You may or may not remember me mentioning my love for the anime Baccano in which the first episode pretty much shows you how every major plot thread will end. I already know this guy's gonna end up in the middle of nowhere missing an arm and surrounded by cops. Now how the hell does it happen!?
I suggested a description of Garm getting hold of the arquebus then going into how he laid his hands on it.
I do say something early on that hints at the outcome of the story in the draft I sent you a link to but nothing detailed.
Your style of writing appears to be inspired by George Martin. I think it is quite fair to say that Tolkien influenced my writing style.
I agree. Game of Thrones is awesome.
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leonard267
FAKKU Non-Writer
d(^_^)(^_^)d wrote...
I haven't checked it out, but if it's meant for all ages, then that means while adults can enjoy it, it's also made accessible for children.
I have to disagree that my prescription for writing a story only appeals to children! I do agree that my prescription for writing makes the story accessible to everyone.
As for Strange Tales, I have to translate it. Really considering setting up a thread of translated stories. Here is the original text of one of its stories. It is about a 16 year old lady who sought revenge for her father who was beaten to death for insulting some powerful landowner. (Not exactly what people would consider suitable for children these days)
Spoiler:
Arguing can be amusing, but most of the fun usually comes from brainwashing your opponent into adopting your views.
Please don't let that happen to you. It isn't fun for me to see you brainwashed. It is however fun for me to counter-argue the points you made in defence of your story. For me the fun ends if you accepted my arguments.
Really? I don't remember that. I guess it has been eight years since I read it though. However, spoiling the story isn't always a bad thing. You may or may not remember me mentioning my love for the anime Baccano in which the first episode pretty much shows you how every major plot thread will end. I already know this guy's gonna end up in the middle of nowhere missing an arm and surrounded by cops. Now how the hell does it happen!?
That can be my suggestion on how your story ought to begin in a nutshell. Here is the prologue to Romeo and Juliet:
Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Do with their death bury their parents' strife.
The fearful passage of their death-mark'd love,
And the continuance of their parents' rage,
Which, but their children's end, nought could remove,
Is now the two hours' traffic of our stage;
The which if you with patient ears attend,
What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.
This prologue explains everything! It is really a synopsis or a summary of sorts. When I suggest that a prologue should explain things, I am often misunderstood. Some claimed that my prescription of what a prologue should be would result in the writer having to write pages and pages of boring exposition. Not really so as the prologue above shows.
For me, a simple description of the gang Garm works for and what it does would suffice. Modern literature shies away from that it seems.
I do say something early on that hints at the outcome of the story in the draft I sent you a link to but nothing detailed.
Hopefully I will get to read it.
I agree. Game of Thrones is awesome.
Ugh. I know you are somewhat annoyed that I don't share your opinion about that book. Look at it this way, at least you can come up with a thread called "d(^_^)(^_^)d HATES THE LORD OF THE RINGS PROLOGUE" as payback for my rather disparaging review of the prologue of Game of Thrones.
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leonard267 wrote...
I have to disagree that my prescription for writing a story only appeals to children! I do agree that my prescription for writing makes the story accessible to everyone. You know, the more I think about it, some of your stuff I've read kinda feels like a fair tale. The Aristocrat, the Peasant, and the City in particular comes to mind. I did not know the title off the top of my head by the way. I had to look it up.
As for Strange Tales, I have to translate it. Really considering setting up a thread of translated stories. Here is the original text of one of its stories. It is about a 16 year old lady who sought revenge for her father who was beaten to death for insulting some powerful landowner. (Not exactly what people would consider suitable for children these days)
I'm sure I could find a translation of it somewhere on the internet.
It is however fun for me to counter-argue the points you made in defence of your story.
I did say usually.
This prologue explains everything! It is really a synopsis or a summary of sorts. When I suggest that a prologue should explain things, I am often misunderstood. Some claimed that my prescription of what a prologue should be would result in the writer having to write pages and pages of boring exposition. Not really so as the prologue above shows.
For me, a simple description of the gang Garm works for and what it does would suffice. Modern literature shies away from that it seems.
For me, a simple description of the gang Garm works for and what it does would suffice. Modern literature shies away from that it seems.
If a story needs pages of exposition, then it's either far too complicated for its own good, or the author needs to stop talking about how the elves of some foreign land like their coffee.
The problem with the first chapter of a story is there are a lot of people that will drop it if they aren't hooked by then. Hell, most people would probably drop a story if they aren't interested after the first paragraph.
Hopefully I will get to read it.
I appreciate it.
Ugh. I know you are somewhat annoyed that I don't share your opinion about that book. Look at it this way, at least you can come up with a thread called "d(^_^)(^_^)d HATES THE LORD OF THE RINGS PROLOGUE" as payback for my rather disparaging review of the prologue of Game of Thrones.
If you'd just read the first several chapters, you'd have the answers to most of the questions you think the prologue should have answered.
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leonard267
FAKKU Non-Writer
If a story needs pages of exposition, then it's either far too complicated for its own good, or the author needs to stop talking about how the elves of some foreign land like their coffee.
The problem with the first chapter of a story is there are a lot of people that will drop it if they aren't hooked by then. Hell, most people would probably drop a story if they aren't interested after the first paragraph.
I will counter by saying that I will drop the book if things aren't explained like what I did with the Game of Thrones. "The Others" came out from nowhere without any hint as to what they are.
If Martin came up with a simple description of who they are and what they do, I would have stomached the 'prologue' much better. That can be done in one sentence. (Garm was a member of the Hounds, a gang dealing with illicit activities ranging from prostitution and adult video making, and one that once dominated the streets of some God-forsaken city.)
I will repeat this again, a simple description of who they are and what they do will suffice. When I say exposition, people misunderstand me to mean 'pages of exposition'. A long sentence will suffice.
To digress a little, what are the odds that you will drop the Lord of the Rings I wonder? I treated the prologue like a newspaper article which serves to inform of some exotic and faraway place. It wasn't boring to me.
If you'd just read the first several chapters, you'd have the answers to most of the questions you think the prologue should have answered.
SEVERAL?! I hope you mean few! I have read chapter summaries of the Game of Thrones and I enjoyed them (the chapter summaries I mean). I just dislike how content is presented in those books.
If you asked me, the prologue should begin with Ned Stark at the coronation of the new king. This is where the characters can recollect what trouble they had to go through to install the new king and at the same time, the setting of the story can be explained. (Not after a few confusing chapters)
Furthermore, this prologue wouldn't kill off characters (who serve as my guide to understanding the story) and it takes place before the events of the story. (Which what everybody thinks a prologue is these days.)
Postscript: Now I would like to write a parody of A Song of Ice and Fire. Don't worry, I think I wouldn't do it. It would take too long.