[Locked] Atheism is not a religion

You think any person is going to participate in a discussion that's ruled by three, and totally opinionated, users? Never mind the fact that the opinions I think are worthy of discussion are brushed aside by this ongoing war between the three of you. Those that tried to discuss left because yours and Kalistean's and Droomy's discussion (which has devolved into a slugfest of personal attacks) simply bar all other intelligent discussion.

Even though you have no proof or quotes from these supposed people, fine, I'll take this to PMs.

wtf?? that is my first thought. I never knew it was a religion to begin with. because isint the definition of religion, or being part of one. mean believing in a god? and yet if your atheist, you dont believe in one. so theres no way it can be one right?

I have carefully read and studied this discussion here. And with investing all my efforts, i have finally managed to find an answer to these questions:

Atheism is an absence of presence, while black is a firm belief in higher deities (plural!).

Religion does not have to be about believing in a deity. Just most do.

And what do you mean Atheism is an absence of pressence? That doesn't really make sense.

Actually the dictionary also used to have 'immoral' as part of the definition. I still have a copy that does, rather amusing.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it's probably a cold war relic.

On topic:
"Many Christians seem to believe that atheism is a religion, but no one with an accurate understanding of both concepts would make such a mistake. Atheism lacks every one of the characteristics of religion. At most, atheism doesn’t explicitly exclude most of them, but the same can be said for almost anything. Thus, it’s not possible to call atheism a religion. It can be part of a religion, but it can’t be a religion by itself. They are completely different categories: atheism is the absence of one particular belief while religion is a complex web of traditions and beliefs."
SOURCE: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismreligionideology/Atheism_is_Not_a_Religion_Ideology_Belief_System_Philosophy.htm

Really we should just look at the dictionary definition for 'religion' and compare it to what atheists do, and if they do that, then it's a religion.

SOURCE: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/religion
1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Well, they don't have a belief in a supernatural power, creator of the universe. I would argue maybe they have a system grounded in the belief of science, but worship? As for a life or condition in a religious order, Atheism isn't really constructed around an order of 'bishops', and they don't have teachings from a 'spiritual' leader. I would say maybe points 2 and 4 have a somewhat debatable correlation to atheism, but that is no way a fully fledged religion, if anything its agnostic.

Then again we have the definition from another source:
SOURCE: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

This one really does sound like it could correlate more to atheism, doesn't mention anything at all to do with supernatural creators. Although that point about ethics kind of throws me, since my ethics don't relate to some doctrine handed down by other atheists, we don't have the 10 commandments and all that jazz. Until atheists start handing out scripture and saying 'you HAVE to believe this, you have no say in the matter and this is 100% true and will never change regardless of evidence' then it can't really be referred to as a religion, then again...

Hmm, this truly could be a debatable subject, although pointless.
Can't we just say they are two separate things and be done with it.
'Religion' is when you believe a supernatural force created the universe.
'Atheism' is when you DONT believe a supernatural force created the universe.
Since they are two separate things, one can't be the other.
An orange is an orange, no matter how much you say it's an apple, it will never be an apple, no matter how much you believe it's an apple.
Unless of course we use SCIENCE and GMO to make an orange apple...

Okay. Droomy, kalistean, and neostriker, this is an adult website in case you haven't noticed, so if you are going to act like children please vacate the premises.

To everyone else,
Though the actual definitions of religion and atheism are subject to some amount of personal interpretation. This is how I see it:

Atheism is knowing that no deity exists. This does not mean you have to be actively rejecting the idea of a god, you can simply know it to be false. I do not believe in something like... I don't know.... Octopus lemmming unicorn people. This does not mean I have gone my entire life actively taking the idea and rejecting it, it simply never crossed my mind that they could exist,(until i made them up just now) because logically they don't.

The same can be true for atheism. You don't BELIEVE god doesn't exist. You simply know for logical fact that there is no god.
In the same way that you know for logical fact that the sky is blue, or that Kalistean is an ignorant blatherskate. (sorry, couldn't resist) And since knowing the sky is blue is obviously not a religion, knowing that god doesn't exist is similarly not a religion.



Also @Chio, It's nice to see someone actually posting on topic. I would rep you if i hadn't used mine for the day.

I believe you mean blatherskite my good sir.

Knowing is a bad term to use. It suggests that you know for a fact that it is true.

You don't know this. Saying you do know for a fact implies ignorance of the subject.

It's also considerably different than things like the tea kettle and your octopus people because those aspects are something possible to experiment with science. Religion is a separate matter from science and they should remain separate, so yeah.

And yes, you are rejecting the belief in a deity. Rejecting is the act of acknowledging the belief, and then supplying a different belief as better in your opinion, instead.

And no, it's not the same way of knowing the sky is blue. You know this because of observation. A scientific process.

And again, science and religion are separate matters.


Chlor:

I see your point you are making about Religion and Atheism. But if you are separating them by that point and making them opposites, then that would mean that Atheists would not have religion. At all.

But that wouldn't be possible because everyone has their own person religion, their own set of beliefs and opinions about things.

And again, it's a religious denotation. A distinction mean to separate from another belief. Just like stating you believe in a certain deity over another to define yourself.

I will say that it would only fit under the definition of religion in the loosest sense of the word. And shouldn't be referred to as one. But I wouldn't be able to disagree against its similarities with religion either.

Though it isn't by any means an organized religion.

Still probably the best description would be that it isn't one, and that atheists themselves just have a personal religion.

I'll say it one more time and then leave it... Atheism is not a religion only because it just refers to what someone does 'not' believe, and makes no reference as to what they believe is true. Religion is a description of what a person believes, but Atheism is the denial of certain beliefs.

Um, you don't deny something unless you believe something else is the better answer.

Epic sigh...

Look, kal, buddy, I'm trying to help you here, but first you need to be able to help yourself.

Firstly, no, I don't mean blatherskite, if I meant blatherskite, I would have written blatherskite, though your thoughtful correction readily showcases your ability to look up words you don't know, and use the given spelling alternative to attempt to correct your betters.

Secondly, yes it can be known that god doesn't exist, because logic and reason are among the accepted ways of knowing, and logic, reason, and if you happen to be Stephen Hawking, physics can be used to disprove god's existance.

Thirdly, I will accept that Knowing the sky is blue, and Knowing god doesn't exist are done through different methods (observation, and deduction respectively) if that was the source of your confusion, but they are both knowable nonetheless, unless you wish to go into the many varied philosophies about to what extent a person can truly "know" something, which would be a pointless tangent.

Lastly, you are correct if you meant religion should be kept out of science, but if you believe science(AKA a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths ) should not be used in religion,(even if used only to disprove the religion) you are either hopelessly misguided, or did not properly think about the statement you were making. (also, I am at a loss as to how you propose to experiment on my octopus people with science, unless this is yet another example of you not thinking before writing)

Since you can't seem to grasp these concepts when I use them normally, I will summarize it for you in neat, easy to follow, bullet form.

- Religion is based upon belief and faith, rather than knowledge.

- Knowing something is true is not a religion.

- Atheism is knowing that god doesn't exist.

- THEREFORE, Atheism is not a religion.


Quod Erat Demonstrandum ...... Bitches.

atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist, his existence cant be disproved (no, not even by Stephen Hawking) therefor it is a theory. Atheism is not a religion, it is a lack of one. This debate is pointless.

I really wish you had stepped in 5 pages ago. Oh well, all well that ends well.

Atheism isn't the lack of a religion. Atheists do have their own personal religions, and can embrace one of the multiple organized religions that do exhibit a deity within it.


As for Grover. The very fact that he thinks you can prove God doesn't exist makes me just ignore his entire post from therein.

I must pretty much agree with this. This debate will go nowhere and will appear many more times. I may throw in a word or two here and there, but I'm not getting too entangled in these type of things anymore. Arguing on the internet and all that.

What? I've never heard of atheists following any religion.



It's from wikipedia but it seems to state that you're wrong.

It contrasts with religions that believe in deities. If you look at your passage from wikipedia, it even states it as "The most common form"

A religion does not need to have a deity to be a religion. Just most do.


And I believe you can be something along the lines of an Atheist Buddhist.

if they dont believe in a higher power, then what set of beliefs do atheists believe in concerning the origin and purpose of our universe?

You posted a lot of opinions but none of it can be considered fact.