Suicide & Euthanasia
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IEAIAIO wrote...
A person's life is their own. It's one of the few things that can ever truly belong to you. If someone wants to commit suicide then I believe it's their choice no matter what anyone else might feel.I agree. And I think it is their own way to make themselves free~(from pain they are having)
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Suicide is selfish... when you're looking at it in retrospect, or as a mentally healthy person. It hurts people around you. But when you're actually considering suicide yourself, depression leads you to believe that no one cares about you. You tell yourself that everyone will be happier with you out of the picture. Because of this, suicidal people don't find it quite so selfish.
And I don't think of it as cowardly. I think it's incredibly bigoted to write ALL suicides off as acts of cowardice. It's a very childish and closed-minded sort of view, in my opinion.
For one thing, the greatest human fear is death. Humans would do anything to survive. It's programmed into us. (Of course, there are exceptions). How is meeting death head-on cowardly?
Secondly. Depression often means the sufferer feels they have no hope. They think there is no chance of their life ever improving. It can be almost impossible for them to think optimistically. When you're mentally healthy, it's easy to say, "Oh, you could fix this problem! haha weaklings". But when you're going through it yourself? You're gonna have a harder time shrugging it off and saying it'll be over soon.
Third. What if you are trapped? What if it will never improve? Say you're sent to jail on charges of pedophilia, life sentence. The other inmates would never let you live that down. They'd make life hell for you. Now of course that's an extreme example, but hey it's 2:19am, dammit. Suffering through all that for the natural course of your life would be pointless. Your remaining time on earth would be extremely depressing and lonely. So why not just get it over with already? Everyone dies someday.
And I don't think of it as cowardly. I think it's incredibly bigoted to write ALL suicides off as acts of cowardice. It's a very childish and closed-minded sort of view, in my opinion.
For one thing, the greatest human fear is death. Humans would do anything to survive. It's programmed into us. (Of course, there are exceptions). How is meeting death head-on cowardly?
Secondly. Depression often means the sufferer feels they have no hope. They think there is no chance of their life ever improving. It can be almost impossible for them to think optimistically. When you're mentally healthy, it's easy to say, "Oh, you could fix this problem! haha weaklings". But when you're going through it yourself? You're gonna have a harder time shrugging it off and saying it'll be over soon.
Third. What if you are trapped? What if it will never improve? Say you're sent to jail on charges of pedophilia, life sentence. The other inmates would never let you live that down. They'd make life hell for you. Now of course that's an extreme example, but hey it's 2:19am, dammit. Suffering through all that for the natural course of your life would be pointless. Your remaining time on earth would be extremely depressing and lonely. So why not just get it over with already? Everyone dies someday.
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Looky-tan
Got Megane?
Honestly you sounded like all the therapists and shrinks/counselors I talked to. I guess what you say is true, but I've yet to come to terms with it. I did what I felt was the right thing, of course it didn't turn out the way I wanted/planned it to back then, and I know what they say must be true, but I just can't...I don't know, right now I am just focusing on trying to make friends like they told me too, people I can talk to regularly who have similar interests.
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@ Looking4Moar
... If am I wrong, forgive me, as I mean no offense, but might you have attempted or thought of suicide?
... If am I wrong, forgive me, as I mean no offense, but might you have attempted or thought of suicide?
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Vio wrote...
For one thing, the greatest human fear is death. Humans would do anything to survive. It's programmed into us. (Of course, there are exceptions). How is meeting death head-on cowardly? this made me think of animals, as all animals are driven by instincts to survive. then i thought of whales beaching them selves. that is suicide. whales are suposed to be very inteligent. are they self aware enough to become suicidaly depressed, or is it more like they sense they are near death from diseasse or old age? i've seen a couple of my dogs act oddly just before they died of old age. as though the suddenly just knew they were about to die.
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If anybody's interested in a non-christian religious view:
From a buddhist's point of view in terms of karma and reincarnation, suicide is the equivalent of basically hard rebooting your computer and burning out your hard drive when you turn the power back on.
Basically through the countless cycles of life and death one...being i guess would be the best term i can think of at the moment, goes through, after their nth cycle they've reached the level of a human being
(which of course can be debated on the issue of humans being near the "highest" level but I'll leave that for another thread to discuss).
Anyways, back to topic, basically you screw your karma and reincarnation cycle hard and you go back to the bottom of the totem pole.
I don't know if that's helps or not, but personally if the only thing that's gonna result in killing myself is I have to start the whole damn process over again, I might as well live through my life and try to improve what I have now and hopefully the next time around, things will be better. Or who knows, maybe things will be awesome by the time I'm close to the end. :P
this made me think of animals, as all animals are driven by instincts to survive. then i thought of whales beaching them selves. that is suicide. whales are suposed to be very inteligent. are they self aware enough to become suicidaly depressed, or is it more like they sense they are near death from diseasse or old age? i've seen a couple of my dogs act oddly just before they died of old age. as though the suddenly just knew they were about to die.
However, there's a slight nuance there earl, which I think is important. When a whale beaches itself, they are laying rest before their final moments (at least this is how i take it as) and as for your dogs they probably felt the same way too. Now, if we take that same whale and instead of beaching itself, swims headlong into the rotor blades of a tanker or swims straight to a whaling ship or if your pet dogs ran straight into heavy traffic, there's a difference right?
Basically, the way I see it, the whale and your dogs were waiting for death to come to them, not the other way around :P
From a buddhist's point of view in terms of karma and reincarnation, suicide is the equivalent of basically hard rebooting your computer and burning out your hard drive when you turn the power back on.
Basically through the countless cycles of life and death one...being i guess would be the best term i can think of at the moment, goes through, after their nth cycle they've reached the level of a human being
(which of course can be debated on the issue of humans being near the "highest" level but I'll leave that for another thread to discuss).
Anyways, back to topic, basically you screw your karma and reincarnation cycle hard and you go back to the bottom of the totem pole.
I don't know if that's helps or not, but personally if the only thing that's gonna result in killing myself is I have to start the whole damn process over again, I might as well live through my life and try to improve what I have now and hopefully the next time around, things will be better. Or who knows, maybe things will be awesome by the time I'm close to the end. :P
earlshaggwell wrote...
Vio wrote...
For one thing, the greatest human fear is death. Humans would do anything to survive. It's programmed into us. (Of course, there are exceptions). How is meeting death head-on cowardly? this made me think of animals, as all animals are driven by instincts to survive. then i thought of whales beaching them selves. that is suicide. whales are suposed to be very inteligent. are they self aware enough to become suicidaly depressed, or is it more like they sense they are near death from diseasse or old age? i've seen a couple of my dogs act oddly just before they died of old age. as though the suddenly just knew they were about to die.
However, there's a slight nuance there earl, which I think is important. When a whale beaches itself, they are laying rest before their final moments (at least this is how i take it as) and as for your dogs they probably felt the same way too. Now, if we take that same whale and instead of beaching itself, swims headlong into the rotor blades of a tanker or swims straight to a whaling ship or if your pet dogs ran straight into heavy traffic, there's a difference right?
Basically, the way I see it, the whale and your dogs were waiting for death to come to them, not the other way around :P
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I find suicide to be as much of a personal choice as religion. I find that everyone has a right to it however, I believe they should be of a mature enough age and have it well thought out before going through with it. (Being broad to explain thought process)Being at least 22 and putting at least a month of serious thought and desire behind it, suicide should be accepted. People get dealt shitty lives. Not everyone is that shonen character that puts heart into everything and comes out a winner. Some people are just not raised with the proper tools to deal with the curve balls life gives them. Whether it's nature or nurture. Saying that someone is being completely selfish and doesn't care about anyone else or just being stupid are just angry. They are angry at the loss that they fear to feel when that person dies. Will I be said if my family member directly or indirectly kills herself? Of course. But she is unable to breath correctly and the rest of her body is in the pits, health-wise. So I'm not going to be mad at her. I'm not going to call her stupid or selfish, I will appropriately encourage that she doesn't, but she is a grown woman and can make her own choices without having to have acceptance by the public like teenager trying to fit in. Those that suffer from depression or PTSD and the possible guilt that they may bear, are in just as much pain as a cancer patient, their difficult to treat and, no matter what they try, can't stop the contant, emotional and mental turmoil. They have the right as well.
To those that call us cowards, are you now making it illegal to be a coward? What other personality traits do you wish to abolish in your eyes of justice? Maybe lolicons and all perverts as well?
tl;dr = I support the matured choice of suicide. Don't say those who commit suicide or self-center and greedy.
From a buddhist's point of view in terms of karma and reincarnation, suicide is the equivalent of basically hard rebooting your computer and burning out your hard drive when you turn the power back on.
Basically through the countless cycles of life and death one...being i guess would be the best term i can think of at the moment, goes through, after their nth cycle they've reached the level of a human being
(which of course can be debated on the issue of humans being near the "highest" level but I'll leave that for another thread to discuss).
Anyways, back to topic, basically you screw your karma and reincarnation cycle hard and you go back to the bottom of the totem pole.
I don't know if that's helps or not, but personally if the only thing that's gonna result in killing myself is I have to start the whole damn process over again, I might as well live through my life and try to improve what I have now and hopefully the next time around, things will be better. Or who knows, maybe things will be awesome by the time I'm close to the end. :P
While I know there are some technical differences and mindsets, is it not Buddhism that practices that one can achieve enlightenment by being placed in a hole in the ground with a bell to ring till you die of starvation or thirst. where upon after 30 or so days, when they bring your corpse out, if you have not decayed at all, you achieved enlightenment? Still suicide by definition in my book.
(Just to quibble) A lot of people went out the window because of the blast forcing them out.
To those that call us cowards, are you now making it illegal to be a coward? What other personality traits do you wish to abolish in your eyes of justice? Maybe lolicons and all perverts as well?
tl;dr = I support the matured choice of suicide. Don't say those who commit suicide or self-center and greedy.
ductape wrote...
If anybody's interested in a non-christian religious view:From a buddhist's point of view in terms of karma and reincarnation, suicide is the equivalent of basically hard rebooting your computer and burning out your hard drive when you turn the power back on.
Basically through the countless cycles of life and death one...being i guess would be the best term i can think of at the moment, goes through, after their nth cycle they've reached the level of a human being
(which of course can be debated on the issue of humans being near the "highest" level but I'll leave that for another thread to discuss).
Anyways, back to topic, basically you screw your karma and reincarnation cycle hard and you go back to the bottom of the totem pole.
I don't know if that's helps or not, but personally if the only thing that's gonna result in killing myself is I have to start the whole damn process over again, I might as well live through my life and try to improve what I have now and hopefully the next time around, things will be better. Or who knows, maybe things will be awesome by the time I'm close to the end. :P
While I know there are some technical differences and mindsets, is it not Buddhism that practices that one can achieve enlightenment by being placed in a hole in the ground with a bell to ring till you die of starvation or thirst. where upon after 30 or so days, when they bring your corpse out, if you have not decayed at all, you achieved enlightenment? Still suicide by definition in my book.
LostQuartet wrote...
does that mean the people who jumped off the buildings in 9/11 are going to hell? :/
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I think a lot of people misunderstand suicide. It's often not what people imagine. People commonly commit suicide when they cannot take any more, when they simply cannot cope with their problems. Imagine a bathtub, with stress and problems as the water. As problems build up, the water rises. Ordinarily, people can do things to calm down and relieve stress, such as hobbies or talking to friends, and that effectively removes water from the tub. But sometimes, a person cannot calm down, cannot escape or solve their troubles, so the water continues to rise, building up. It may fill the entire tub and spill over. At that point, the person is unable to cope with the problems and may feel that the only solution is to die. But it's not rational. It's not, "I have too many problems, and I can only escape them by dying." It's like a mental illness. They break, lose their minds. Very simply, people often commit suicide when they cannot cope.
It is also important to remember that not everyone handles things the same way, and that strength is relative. You may be able to handle your wife leaving you or your son dying, while I may completely break down. All sorts of things influence how a person reacts, so it can be impossible to say what any given person can and cannot handle. Calling a person that killed himself a "coward" is far too simple. Nobody kills himself for a crappy reason. It may look crappy to you, but it was major for the person.
Additional info: Not always, but often, men will kill themselves in quick ways, such as gunshots to the head, while women will kill themselves in slow ways, such as pill overdoses. The latter may be done out of a desire to be saved; there's the hope that someone will come across them and help them, get them the help they need. Also, areas where country music is more popular tend to have more suicides, perhaps due to the sappy nature (and affinity for drinking) of most country songs and the high percentage of gun ownership in such areas (making it easier for one to get hold of a gun and kill themselves).
It is also important to remember that not everyone handles things the same way, and that strength is relative. You may be able to handle your wife leaving you or your son dying, while I may completely break down. All sorts of things influence how a person reacts, so it can be impossible to say what any given person can and cannot handle. Calling a person that killed himself a "coward" is far too simple. Nobody kills himself for a crappy reason. It may look crappy to you, but it was major for the person.
Additional info: Not always, but often, men will kill themselves in quick ways, such as gunshots to the head, while women will kill themselves in slow ways, such as pill overdoses. The latter may be done out of a desire to be saved; there's the hope that someone will come across them and help them, get them the help they need. Also, areas where country music is more popular tend to have more suicides, perhaps due to the sappy nature (and affinity for drinking) of most country songs and the high percentage of gun ownership in such areas (making it easier for one to get hold of a gun and kill themselves).
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ductape wrote...
Basically, the way I see it, the whale and your dogs were waiting for death to come to them, not the other way around :Pi think the whales beaching themselves shows more of an effort to actualy kill them selves. but, since i can't ask them, i guess i'll never really know.
on a lighter note:
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earlshaggwell wrote...
ductape wrote...
Basically, the way I see it, the whale and your dogs were waiting for death to come to them, not the other way around :Pi think the whales beaching themselves shows more of an effort to actualy kill them selves. but, since i can't ask them, i guess i'll never really know.
Squid mass suicide, three days BEFORE an earthquake.
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[size=12]Holy shit. What's the source on that story. It seems weird to me that animals would commit suicide. Now don't tell about that fake Disney documentary either. [/h]
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Ttocs wrote...
[size=12]Holy shit. What's the source on that story. It seems weird to me that animals would commit suicide. Now don't tell about that fake Disney documentary either. [/h]National Geographic
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Here's my theory!
edit*
The world we called earth is known to many life, but the space for each life on earth is limited. So to allowed new generation of animal or squid be born without filling the ocean some of it must sacrifice in order to do so.
Unlike human i think the action of these squid are quite right but for human i think the only solution is war. Squid doing this perhaps to reserve the food for their young ones.
edit*
The world we called earth is known to many life, but the space for each life on earth is limited. So to allowed new generation of animal or squid be born without filling the ocean some of it must sacrifice in order to do so.
Unlike human i think the action of these squid are quite right but for human i think the only solution is war. Squid doing this perhaps to reserve the food for their young ones.
Spoiler:
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Qrast wrote...
Here's my theory!The world we called earth is known to many life, but the space for each life on earth is limited. So to allowed new generation of animal or squid be born with filling the ocean some of it must sacrifice in order to do so.
Unlike human i think the action of these squid are quite right but for human i think the only solution is war. Squid doing this perhaps to reserve the food for their young ones.
very interesting theory: war as an instinctual form of suicide. sort of a spieces wide subconscious effort to control population growth(if i'm reading you right).
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Vio wrote...
Ttocs wrote...
[size=12]Holy shit. What's the source on that story. It seems weird to me that animals would commit suicide. Now don't tell about that fake Disney documentary either. [/h]National Geographic
Thanks. Seems like just a snafu of nature.
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Suicide could be a result of a mental breakdown. When they think that everything in their life is ruined they would stick up into committing suicide. That's how people are nowadays. There are also some folks that don't mind committing suicide especially the suicide bombers or terrorists.
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As a Jew, im going to hell anyways. So sucide is an option for a terminally ill me. However, as a man, i prefer to see things to the end. Be it a happy or sad one.
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With the exception of the last paragraph, every bit of what Vio said in this post rings very true. Suicidal depression isn't something rational. It's not something you can think your way out of, because most of your rationale is being twisted against your will into something overwhelmingly negative. The only way to overcome those horrible times is to have some sort of anchor, something to focus your mind on or distract yourself with that doesn't involve your thoughts or emotions, and to stick to that until you've ridden out the worst of it and your normal reasoning and survival instinct return.
People who commit suicide in this state should be pitied; shit might have hit them just right at just the wrong time, and opportunity conspired to provide them the means to end themselves just when they couldn't muster up the cojones to say "no thanks, I'll be fine in a bit." Their ultimate fate in the hereafter isn't any of our business.
However, having worked in a hospital, I've seen my share of miraculous recoveries and patients who persist in living even in the worst possible situations. After witnessing a man losing roughly half of his body in a horrible car wreck, coupled with burns over 35% of the remaining half, becoming blind and deaf on one side, and still saying "I'm still alive. Don't you dare pull the plug on me, I'm not dying." ...well, after witnessing that, I don't have all that much respect for the fellows who just up and decide it's better to die, without involuntary neurochemical shitstorms wreaking havoc in their grey matter.
People who commit suicide in this state should be pitied; shit might have hit them just right at just the wrong time, and opportunity conspired to provide them the means to end themselves just when they couldn't muster up the cojones to say "no thanks, I'll be fine in a bit." Their ultimate fate in the hereafter isn't any of our business.
However, having worked in a hospital, I've seen my share of miraculous recoveries and patients who persist in living even in the worst possible situations. After witnessing a man losing roughly half of his body in a horrible car wreck, coupled with burns over 35% of the remaining half, becoming blind and deaf on one side, and still saying "I'm still alive. Don't you dare pull the plug on me, I'm not dying." ...well, after witnessing that, I don't have all that much respect for the fellows who just up and decide it's better to die, without involuntary neurochemical shitstorms wreaking havoc in their grey matter.