U.S.A Opinion

Because every single latino that crosses the border is a gang related serial killer drug lord looking to destroy the fabric of america? Give me a break. Some people try to get in because as many of them do appear on tv say, they are looking for a better life. These are potential law-abiding citizens, and want to be residents. But not all of them can afford the thousands of dollars that it takes to go through the immigration process to become an american citizen. I'll give it to you, that once you meet the requirements to become an american citizen it is like $700 bucks to get your papers and finger prints done but to just meet the requirements.

You must be 18 years or older.
You must be a green card holder for five years.
You must have lived in the State for at least three months.
You must be a continuous resident of the USA as a green card holder for at least five years.
From the five years period you must have physically present/live in the US for at least 30 months.
After application, you must have live in the US till you are naturalized.
You must learn to speak, read and write Basic English and know the US history and government.
You must be a decent person with good morals and character, and attached to the principles of the constitution.


Now please explain to me how someone is supposed to meet those requirements for this without spending thousands of dollars. That just doesn't happen.




How would the world have been different? That is a very good question. I'd like to think that our society in general would be at least 5-8 times more advanced in technology than it is now if we had adopted this mentality of global unity earlier. Why? Because we'd be putting our money in science and not into blowing each other up. We'd be spending on money on feeding the population, cultivating better crops, giving health care to every individual, finding better ways to spend out time, advancing the arts, creating more jobs and making higher productivity, exploring space and quantum science, communicating with the furthest reaches of our planets, and most importantly traveling whereever we want to.

The atomic bomb is not a feat, it is a disaster. You are claiming it as some form of good, yet einstien himself specifically stated that his theory on breaking the atom to produce energy was never ment for destruction, he was looking for electons. Einstien was disgusted that america would do such a stupid thing with his theories. That was the whole reason he left europe, to get away from the war mentality. Do you not understand any of the history of science? My god, every scientist who ever lived, not a single one of them has done their research for war, they did it for the people, it was the people that took their ideas and used it for war.

Like randomness was saying if japan didnt get stop in WWII then what? I bet you fakku would have never exist. Now for the atomic bomb, it was true that people did use Einstein work to create a bomb but thats besides the point. That bomb took away lives and save some. Destroyed land and rebuild it. Destroyed a corrupt govt and made a new one. This was done using the A-bomb.

Good for your parents. Somehow they found money and managed to do it, but as you so clearly stated, they are a minority, and they remain a minority because of such policies that cost thousands.

I'm going to point out the largest flaw in your logic example of your school, and I'll use my own personal life for this, since you used yours. I'm white, and I'm male, living in a country with a large white population, canada. I went to schools in different town, where you could count the number of minority people on 1 hand. Everyone else was white, and who were the other kids that caused the most problems? the white ones. The minority kids consistantly had better grades, better behavior, were top athletes, top in the arts, top in everything, never did drugs or openly drank alcohol, they were never late for class and never missed assignments. Yet the white kids caused the most problems. You can't prove that it's the minorities that cause the problems cause that's just not true. And canada is very similar to america in so many ways.



Four words: The Internation Space Station



Do you know why the world is the way it is today? Because people went to war and killed each other for the technology that we take advantage of today. The reason that kids complain over their iPad 7.0 that is thinner than paper itself is because of the military. We went to war, and this was the results of our efforts. Take some responsibility, the world is fucked up because we fucked it up, and this is what we got. We already saw how these methods work in the past with these policies and they lead us to war, and a peace time filled with stupid people.

Do you know what einstien said about these types of things? "Stupidity is trying the same thing over and over again expecting a different result."

Mexico has tough border policies, and it's over run with criminals. So america should do the same thing? Look how well it turned out for china, or north korea, or russia, or germany, or mexico. Your own logic is what is defeating you.


Edit: You people keep saying "what if germany was never stopped?" "what if japan was never stopped" "what if russia was never stopped".

What if they never had a reason to go to war in the first place? What then? You are asking the wrong questions. Stop justifying your past actions as if they were correct. The end does not always justify the means.

Japan went to war with america because of resources over the pacific ocean. What if they didn't need to. What if germany was not sent into economic hell by the allies as vengence for the first world war. They needed a wheelborrow full of money just to buy a loaf of bread. And you are calling them the bad guys?

Your wrong. People did not kill because of technology. They killed because they had to for survival purposes and for others. No tech can amount to anyone life. We know that as common sense so that argument is invaild.

Let's get one thing straight here. People haven't needed to kill since the invention of farming. There is not a single thing survival about human warfare. We kill because we want more, because we want to impose our own thoughts on others and to take what they have. Nothing more, nothing less.

Is that how you view warfare? As some fucked up game of who wanting more? Your saying that the people who went to D-Day was only there because they wanted to impose their thoughts? IS THAT WHAT YOUR SAYING!

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. War is imply the excuse for organized murder. Do you know why the germans attacked during the second world war? Did you know that after the first world war they were starving to death by the hundreds if not thousands. The german economy was robbed by the allies, sanctioned so badly that they couldn't even steal food cause there was none. Germany had no choice to go to war because politics had failed them, because the other side rather than rebuilding, decided that retribution was a better option.

You don't even bother to ask why things happen, only assuming that what happened was the right thing. Again, I must re-iterate, the end does not justify the means. You think that just because the allies showed up and defeated the germans that it made the world a better place, you need a reality check. Humanity didn't become better because of war, our ability to wage war is insanity.

Those early people that learned how to farm, they found out that they didn't need to hunt for food, they didn't need anything else to live. They built homes, they cultivated food, that was all they needed. So why did they go to war with other tribes? It certainly wasn't over food which they already had, it certainly wasn't over shelter which they were building, it was only to take what they didn't have, or didn't want to build.

Humanity could have worked together but they decided not to, why? Greed. That's all this is, a giant game.

If this makes you mad, it's because what I say is true.

Do you know what china and russia said to america over north korea. They said that if america declared war on north korea, they would declare war on america because they had broken the UN political action to bring a peaceful negotiation. It's time to own up in this topic and accept that things aren't as you believe them to be.

So basically, it's okay for Germany to retaliate harshly but not okay for America to help out England and Russia. Germany should have instead tried to make a deal and apologize for it's actions in World War I.

Part of the reason of the Allies winning is why we don't have Germany being a good part of Europe.

It isn't greed, Germany needed to be stopped before it was too late. England and France would have become Germany and even Russia if history was different. Hell, probably even Italy would have been betrayed. But I guess it would have been okay, because the Allies ripped their economy apart before.

Russia and China just use North Korea an excuse to say "FUCK YOU!" to the US.

Why should germany have apologized for the first world war? If someone from another country came and assassinated the president of the united states, you'd be damn sure that america would have went to war with that country. They would have done everything in thier power to destroy anyone and everyone who even considered that nation an ally. That was what caused the first world war. Why should germany have apologized for that? Germany did what it had to do, and you posterboying that you're the saint america and the germans are the bad guys, is the reason why the rest of the world thinks that americans are stupid. Times have changed indeed and when you live outside of america and ask people around the world what they think of america, they will tell you flat out, americans are stupid. Why? Because americans believe that they are the bosses of the world and they can do no wrong.

Germany today is the good part of europe, infact the german economy is the only thing holding the euro up. If it wasn't for germany, greece would have been sent back to the stone age. Germany bailed out france, italy and greece.

And you want to talk about china and russia saying the big "fuck you" to america. Then justify how america putting nuclear warheads in south korea during last years military training that started this whole north korean thing was the smart move? Mr. America does no wrong, they are the reason that north korea is acting the way it is.

Don't believe me? You probably don't think that north korea is accessable for negotiation? Then how the fuck did dennis rodman, a fucking NBA player get to spend time with kim jung un. Explain that one genius.

This is just one of those times were we see more american patriotism in the lack of logic. Common amoung american enthusists. And the harsh reality of all this, my parents are american, they left because canada was a better option than living in america.

Perhaps you don't even remember your political history reading of that time, but during the first world war, japan declared war on germany because of the japanese english treaty. Not even 20 years later, decided to ally with germany against the english.

Stop skipping over the important root details, all you're doing is going straight to "america was best cause we had to" and using "what ifs" which is not an argument. I base my arguments like what we see in my posts in fact. You can google every detail of every post I've made so far. It's all on wikipedia for gods sake, doesn't even take that much research.


edit: I bet you don't even know that IBM, the great america company sold the computers the nazi's that allowed them to wage war. They sold all the tracking computers for the death camps to keep track of the prisoners, which under IBM policy means that someone had to show up to make sure the computers were in working order. That means an AMERICAN was working for NAZI GERMANY in the DEATH CAMPS. That is 100% true fact. And you can also fact check this one, coca-cola made the branch company that produced Fanta, which was the nazi german prefered drink during the war. Another american company playing both sides of the war.

I'm surprised that someone like you who has just gone on and on about "what if we didn't stop germany" just made an excuse for american citizens to exchange money and technology with the very people they were supposed to be fighting against. Consistancy is usually a good thing to hold in an argument, especially like this.

I do have some observations though, being that it appears that you have stated that since your parents came to america, and from where you have explained that you live. To me, is sounds like you are just a wannabe american. You are so despritely trying to fit in and be one of those pure blooded white americans.

You don't even see the that countries like japan and south korea which were taken by americans, now resent american influence. Infact, both japan and south korea over the last 2-3 years have been patitioning to have america remove the military bases from their countries. If it was one nation, or one super power saying that america is dumb, or evil, or wrong, I could write it off as some form of rivelry, but when larger portions of the world now see america as oppressive and warmongering, something has gone wrong.

When you have US army personel defecting to canada over the last 10 years, does that not send a flag up in your mind?

This is percisely why it is nearly impossible to have a debate with someone from america, because they refuse to look at certain facts in favour of what america has done as being correct, usually siting situation which aren't as they appear.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/5993.4356.0.0/world/military/japanese-opposition-wants-american-troops-out-of-japan

This was reported in 2009, that the japanese opposition is gaining support to have america leave.

Again, the video says it all "a contractor listens to their mind, not their wallet", you must know who you're dealing with, if something happens, their fault.

"When in a different village, try to become like one of the villagers", I'm not going to go around promoting my country the entire way in the US. Why should I? All the people who promote their countries to the end, end up being a sort of anarchists. The Chicano movement has a good number of members saying "give back California, Texas, Nevada and Arizona back to Mexico!" and yet, Mexico doesn't even support them. In return, the Chicano movement doesn't recognize neither the US nor Mexican government. The movement is just there to cause problems and be racist against Americans and other foreigners.

The hypocrisy of foreigners hating on the US and yet support them by buying US-name products is still there, people hate the US, yet can't live without it.

Just a while ago, a Japanese person and Korean person in my class stated that it's actually mixed. They live right next to China, if North Korea was to attack and both Japan and South Korean retaliate, the US is the only way to keep China in check, so it's a problem and a solution. Doesn't clean away the crimes that American soldiers do.

You have been skipping over lots of things and instead concentrating on different things and bring new things to the discussion.

We went from racism to border talks to the World Wars to this. Why all the different subjects?

Every country has their long list of problems, it's just that the US being the most well-known country amplifies the hate against it.

People don't even care about how women are treated in Japan for example, they are still not as privileged as a man. But it's okay, it's Japan, not the US. It's okay for Japan to not let foreigners in some shops or restaurants, it's not the US. Let's forget how Russia has federal anti-gay laws. Let's not even talk about the treatment of women in some of the countries of the Middle East. But it's normal to let them be, because they aren't as famous.

This topic was made as a question about their opinion about the US. Not this whole list of crap for or against it.

I see USA as a world of fat and stupid people, hill billies, and cheap fast food chains. I see USA as a country that gives countries freedom by force.

I actually thought this 3 years ago. Right now I don't have a opinion simply because I have never been there. I also don't give two shits about USA's history.

I am well aware of the video you posted. I'm not a movie idiot and I do have a love for COMEDY. But that's exactly what you have posted, a comedy movie that was released in 1994, nearly 20 years ago. The 90's was a very different time than it is today, people even 10 years ago couldn't have imagined the iphone, or even the implications of the ipod. There was a very different mentality of the world especially with young people which the clerks was aiming for. Yet you want me to believe a exaggerated comedy as fact. The movie had jay and silent bob in it, how's that for "intellegence".



That is kind of how this works. Someone posts an opinion, someone else posts an opinion, someone quotes that asking why or making an counter argument. That person is then supposed to counter back with thier supporting evidence. Usually this is done by making a list and providing links, for and against the position they are taking. That is called a good debate. Which is percisely what SD section of these forums was designed for. If that happens to be a problem for you, that you don't like when people take your opinion, tear it apart, place it back for you to see with proper counter facts, and supporting evidence, you are in the wrong place. I'll even quote where you started this debate.



You clearly stated here that america is one of the best places to live and idiots can't see that. Well clearly you have provoked one of these "idiots", who has provided you with more evidence than just a personal story about how your parents ended up in america, and "what if we didn't beat the 'bad guys'".



That was summed up in what I just said, you state an opinion and you give your supporting evidence. That is what you do in a debate and it's highly crucial that you do it when you state your opinion because without evidence you are illogical.

Why all these different topics, specifically the ones that you mention, because racism exists in america, because border policy is important in america in todays news and because world wars lead to the formation of countries and ideologies.

These are the factors that form opinions. Why were the germans bad guys, because of this, this and that. That is exactly what has been discussed.



So to finish off my thing, I will talk about the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of austria. Who was a desendent of King Rudolf the 1st. The king of germany. He was married to Sophie, who was nobility from two of the most powerful families in the czech republic. Her father was the diplomate to austria-hungary, and that was how she met Franz. Franz's cousin was crown prince of austria-hungary during this time, while Franz was thought to be a possible heir to the german throne. This counsin commit suicide which made Franz a legimate successor to austria-hungary, when he was assassinated.

Do you see where this is all going? Franz's best friend was siblings with the duke of spain, bavaria (central germany), and austria, while his cousin was crown prince to both hungary and austria. He married the lady in wait to the duchess of his best friend. They were all family!!. And now we see why when he was assassinated, and the crown prince commit suicide, they all went ballistic.

All of these countries, spain, germany, italy, czech, were all related by blood nobility. But what does that have to do with the ottoman empire who covered most of the middle east and africa at that time? Good question and for that we look to hungary, which according to almost all maps, was part of the ottoman empire. That would mean that the crown prince was also nobility in the ottoman empire. And thus the central power is born!!

HAZZAH FOR HISTORY!

Walt disney, this was a man who invited the one of germanies most prolific anti-sematic directors to holywood in praise of his movies. Disney was also the man who by word from his family had a very difficult time with jewish people and racial minorities, and often displayed them as unintellectual in his cartoons often playing off the stereotypes like black people eating only chicken and watermelon. Disney also made a supportive film for hitlers third reich in the form of a donald duck cartoon that supported the nazi occupation of europe.

Disney is also a company that has been known to hide subtle messages in their movies like penis art in the background and underlying sexual encouragement.



Not my fault if you can't keep up.




Of course it is. America Land of free, home of the brave, unless you're asian, black, mexican or arab.



You mentioned the war against germany during the second world war, then I discussed why they want to war. You prompty followed by saying germany should have just apologized for the first world war, to which I said why should they over the assassination. You then responded with how is the archduke of austria-hungary related to germany. And I gave you an answer.

I'll put in in list for for you:

You said that germany was the bad guys for ww2.
I said they had some legitimate reasons for attacking.
You said they should have just apologized for the ww1.
I said that they should not because of the assassination.
You said "what does the assassination have to do with germany?"
I gave you an answer.


That is the sequential order that we have been following so far. You made a arguement, I made a counter argument with my supporting evidence. You question my evidence, so I eleborate. You become confused and now question the relevence of my supporting evidence by saying that we are jumping around too much. Am I missing anything?


Edit: I have to add this in cause we touched on illegal immigration earlier and what it means to america, and you mentioned why I jumped to it at one point with the border. What does it say on the bottom of the statue of liberty. Cause I know and it says:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

You are over-reacting. I just mentioned the Disney movies having messages in them. Then comes the whole "Walt hated Jews" and Disney draws penises in movies stuff.

Are you talking about the Donald Duck cartoon, "Der Fuehrer's Face" which was actually very racist and anti-Axis? Where it ends with Donald loving the fact that he's American and the end has Hitler's face getting a tomato to the face?

Really? The state of California has places where Spanish is the norm, there are even restaurants that discriminate if you don't know Spanish. How are the "minorities" oppressed?

Let's not forget that Hoover and Hitler.

Germany didn't need to apologize. They were however, the true enemy of World War II, no one can doubt that. So should it have been okay to let Germany just conquer everything? Is Germany not at fault to you?

Regarding the status about immigration in the US, along with the saying you posted.

Like everyone and everything, there is a limit. What if all these homeless and poor end up being criminals? Too many immigrants that turn out to be terrorists as seen over the years. No one should take it as it is and just say "OH I GUESS I'LL JUST GO BECAUSE IT SAYS SO!" otherwise, the US might be a far worse place than it already is.

You make that claim without even looking at the reasons that germany went into the second world war to start with. You must have heard the term "a sore winner", this is exactly the case that you are proving. You completely skip over any facts just to get right to the point of saying "germany is bad."

Lets just look at the treaty of versailles:

Open Diplomacy - There should be no secret treaties between powers
Freedom of Navigation - Seas should be free in both peace and war
Free Trade - The barriers to trade between countries such as custom duties should be removed
Multilateral Disarmament - All countries should reduce their armed forces to the lowest possible levels
Colonies - People in European colonies should have a say in their future
Russia - Russia should be allowed to operate whatever government it wanted and that government should be accepted, supported and welcomed.
Belgium - Belgium should be evacuated and restored to the situation before the war.
France - should have Alsace-Lorraine and any lands taken away during the war restored.
Italy - The Italian border should be readjusted according to nationality
National Self -Determination - The national groups in Europe should, wherever possible, be given their independence.
Romania, Montenegro and Serbia - Should be evacuated and Serbia should have an outlet to the sea
Turkey - The people of Turkey should have a say in their future
Poland - Poland should become an independent state with an outlet to the sea.
League of Nations - An assembly of all nations should be formed to protect world peace in the future.

General Clauses

The establishment of the League of Nations
War Guilt clause - Germany to accept blame for starting the war.

Financial Clauses

Reparations - Germany was to pay for the damage caused by the war. The figure of £6,600 million was set some time after the signing of the treaty.

Military Clauses

Army - was to be reduced to 100,000 men and no tanks were allowed
Navy - Germany was only allowed 6 ships and no submarines
Airforce - Germany was not allowed an airforce
Rhineland - The Rhineland area was to be kept free of German military personnel and weapons

Territorial Clauses

Anschluss - Germany was not allowed to unite with Austria.
Land - Germany lost land to a number of other countries. Alsace-Lorraine was returned to France, Eupen and Malmedy were given to Belgium, North Schleswig was given to Denmark. Land was also taken from Germany and given to Czechoslovakia and Poland. The League of Nations took control of Germany's colonies

Austria - The Treaty of St Germain 10th September 1919

Land - Austria lost land to Italy, Czechoslovakia and Serbia (Yugoslavia).
Army - To be reduced to 30,000 men.
Anschluss - Union with Germany was forbidden
Reparations - Austria was to pay reparations but went bankrupt before the rate could be set.

Hungary - The Treaty of Trianon 4th June 1920

Land- Hungary lost land to Austria, Czechoslovakia, Romania and Serbia (Yugoslavia) reducing its size from 283,000 sq km to less than 93,000 sq km. Population was reduced from 18.2 million to 7.6 million.
Army - To be reduced to 35,000 men
Reparations - Hungary was to pay reparations but the amount was never set

Bulgaria - The Treaty of Neuilly 27th November 1919

Land- Bulgaria lost land to Greece, Romania and Serbia (Yugoslavia).
Reparations - Bulgaria had to pay �90 million in reparations
Army - restrictions were made on the size of Bulgaria's army

Turkey - The Treaty of Sevres 20th August 1920

Land - Turkey lost land to Greece. The League of Nations took control of Turkey's colonies.


Take a quick look through this. Most the things taken away from the defeated nations belonged to them before the war even started.

If the british had defeated the americans during the revolution, should america have apologized for being the evil enemies that they are. If the british one and impossed the same terms of harsher terms on america, would it have been ok for america to start another uprising? Cause that is what happened in the first place. Britain demanded a large amount from america and america said no, and they managed to beat britain and look what america has achieved since them. But you are clearly not factoring in the root causes.

The atrocities that the Central Powers got for losing are beyond horrendous. Blame France and England for those. Even today, I still see them as disgusting. Keep in mind that Wilson was trying to make a fair deal regarding this.

You also have to keep in mind that the American Revolution was due to unfair taxes. I think Britain would have won if France never got involved, but everyone wanted to take a shot at Britain back then.

What do you mean by "look what america has achieved since them" as a question? It's a bit vague.

It was a spelling mistake, I ment to say "look at what america has achieved since then".

I was intending this to show how far america has come as a country since the america revolution. They championed freedom and peace for years. America invented nasa, america went to the moon, america cultivated culture in the media, america did so many great things, and also so many bad things. But they were able to achieve this because they beat the british.

Which is why the question, what if germany won, is of interest to me. Maybe the world would be better, maybe it would be worse. Remember, america is a country that genocided the native population then went on to claim a spot for several decades as the greatest country on the planet. At least until post cold war, when america has fallen so far from where it used to be.

So the germans wanted to genocide the jews, just as the americans genocide the natives. So pointing the fingers of who is good, and who is bad, is very subjective and can't be ignored from a historical point of view. Bad people become good, and good people become bad. These roles change constantly.

History if you read it, is a dark tragic comedy. The entire story of humanity is the story of the bad guy beating the good guy, and calling himself the good guy.

The lessor of two evils principle at work.

Are you from the U.K by any chance?

Nope. Been there once though. Tiny houses.